ABX Hiring!?!

[Clipperskip]

It's also helpful to know the history behind that clause. Prior to the '92 agreement those days that can be bottom 50/75ed back into the lines were part of the lines. We got minimal extra pay for them ($190.00) per day for a DC-8 Capt. and no hourly pay unless you went over 65 for the month. Now we get 4.5 hrs minimum, the actual flight time or the scheduled flight time, whichever is greater regarless of the pay credit for the line if we bid them up front.

Essentially, during a time of growth we allowed the company to grow without incuring the payroll added costs of hiring new crewmembers for a period of time. We also tied this to a nearly 45% pay increase across the board, more for relatively junior crewmembers.

Eventually, of course, even open time bidding did not cover all the flying. Management has resorted to Junior Manning, which unfortunately was pegged at a 2.5 hours per assignment and did not increase the cost to the company as fast as payroll added costs (healthcare, vacation, etc) increased. It is now cheaper to staff by junior manning than to hire, hence part of the problem. Another piece of the puzzle is the stagnation/shrinkage that has occured over the last 10 years or so.

Those who would amend the contact to ban open time conviently overlook the increase in pay and QOL that occured at that time. QOL, as a result of the J/M policies of management has gone downhill in recent years. Unfortunately, I very much doubt management will agree to a serious reduction or ban of open flying in the contact without some concessions in pay to may up for the loss of productivity.

IMHO the best we will be able to do is fix the J/M problem.

Erich,
This is the same argument that I have heard now for over a decade. "You need to be thankful that we have the current Open Flying system and senior pilots are willing to sacrifice their days off in an effort to double their paychecks. If it weren't for that then you would not have the pay raises you have"....ooops.. wait a minute...without all the open flying I might have the option to upgrade and work less days to get more pay.
Actually Erich, if you look at my past posts you would see that I do not advocate banning open flying just adjusting it to our present market conditions. As you so accurately noted we are no longer growing but shrinking instead, therefore the system that worked during our company's boom years may not be best suited for the last seven years of consolidation.

 

[erichartmann]

Management does not get to agree with me or anyone else deciding NOT to bid OPF.

While this is certainly true under the current system trying to negotiate contractual limits or the elimination of open flying entirely might be a different matter.

 

[Box-Hauler]

Lets no use the word limit. How about the wording of max allowed days per pilot are 3 until all pilots have bid. This would spread the misery, I mean joy of extra pay. I believe ups uses something similar. Limit the amount of days a crew member can bid open time. Once the open time has run through the seniority list whatever is left can be run through the list again, and again. Wow what a novel idea, a little equality in the way open time works, maybe we should try this for vacation bidding............... Sorry I lost my head there for a minute, I was under the impression that the senior pilots cared about the people they fly with.

So lets hear the nifty fifty response to this. Give the junior guys a shot at the extra pay since you are unwilling to give us the ability to bid the left seat.

 

[erichartmann]

Erich,
This is the same argument that I have heard now for over a decade. "You need to be thankful that we have the current Open Flying system and senior pilots are willing to sacrifice their days off in an effort to double their paychecks. If it weren't for that then you would not have the pay raises you have"....ooops.. wait a minute...without all the open flying I might have the option to upgrade and work less days to get more pay. Actually Erich, if you look at my past posts you would see that I do not advocate banning open flying just adjusting it to our present market conditions. As you so accurately noted we are no longer growing but shrinking instead, therefore the system that worked during our company's boom years may not be best suited for the last seven years of consolidation.

Nowhere did I say you needed to be thankful, at least in my latest post. I’m not going to take the time to go back through my other posts, hence the qualifier. I was simply giving the background of the language. Still, you should understand that your current pay rate is tied to the overall productivity of the pilot group. Reduce the overall productivity of the group and management will want to reduce costs. Costs can be reduced by cutting pay.

Alternatively, we can keep productivity (and pay) the same by increasing the number of days all individuals work while reducing the number of days some individuals work. This would result in more pay for some, as well as increased time out of domicile and reduced QOL for some, who would no doubt see it as form of forced overtime without the benefit, however small, of the additional J/M pay.

As I understand it what the reduce/ban open flying in the contract group want to do is use this as a method to force management to hire more pilots, increase staffing in each seat, and drive upgrades etc. They would do this by keeping the present line construction parameters (more or less, i.e. 15 days off each month). This will result in a serious reduction in productivity. Management is unlikely to find this agreeable. It will increase costs. Further, so long as the airline is stagnant or worse, shrinking, it will benefit only that small group on the upgrade “bubble”, and if shrinking, only for a limited period of time. Once those relative few have moved up, the movement will cease (or reverse in the shrinking case), and the earning ability of all will have decreased.

I agree the system as intended is broken. I personally think the fix is to virtually eliminate management flying, and make J/M expensive enough that management will use it as it was intended. By expensive enough, I favor a sliding scale of extra pay for J/M that starts at 200% of the daily rate of pay for the 1st assigned trip and increases by a minimum of 25% per day (50% would be better) for each additional assignment on a daily basis.

Example 1: Your 1st J/M assignment for the month you receive a one day trip (less than 24 hours out of domicile) and less than 4.5 hours of flight time. You would be paid 9.0 hours.

Example 2: Your 1st J/M assignment for the month you receive a one day trip (less than 24 hours out of domicile) equal to 7.5 hours of flight time. You would be paid 14.0 hours.

Example 3: Your 2nd J/M assignment for the month you receive a one day trip (less than 24 hours out of domicile) and less than 4.5 hours of flight time. You would be paid 11.25 hours.

You get the picture.

Management should not be allowed to fly more than 3 trips per 90 days. Those should come open time prior to anyone being J/Med. Anything else should require a displacement without reassignment of the affected crewmember unless the affected crewmember chooses to be reassigned. Reassignment pay would be required on top of normal pay i.e. you would get paid for your regular trip, and paid as though you had flown an open trip for the reassignment.

 

[erichartmann]

Lets no use the word limit. How about the wording of max allowed days per pilot are 3 until all pilots have bid. This would spread the misery, I mean joy of extra pay. I believe ups uses something similar. Limit the amount of days a crew member can bid open time. Once the open time has run through the seniority list whatever is left can be run through the list again, and again. Wow what a novel idea, a little equality in the way open time works, maybe we should try this for vacation bidding............... Sorry I lost my head there for a minute, I was under the impression that the senior pilots cared about the people they fly with.

So lets hear the nifty fifty response to this. Give the junior guys a shot at the extra pay since you are unwilling to give us the ability to bid the left seat.

You're right, you lost your head .

As I'm sure you realize, I'm fairly senior. None the less, I don't get exactly what I want either. I don't get my first choice of line (actually, I do, because I generally don't bid lines I know I won't get). I don't get exact vacation I might like, I don't bid very much open time (I bid for time off) and rarely get exactly the open trip I would prefer. That is the system. I don't mind. I'll never be # 1. So be it. Seniority rules. I can live with it.

What you want is to level the playing field. You cry the present system is unfair, and favors the senior at the expense of the junior. I understand, I was junior once, but from my POV you want to penalize me a second time. I was already penalized once when I was junior, now you want to take away the rights I have earned by attaining seniority. Hardly seems fair to me. I'll take the risk of being accused of being "me first" and ask how you plan to keep me from being penalized a second time.

 

[T-DOGGIN]

By the way, have you all listened to the hotline this weekend?

Yes, it sounds like the former "By The Book" plan...encourage your Capt to fly long range cruise and the cleared flight plan(no direct to headings)...except on Saturday mornings, of course

Once again as long as it dosen't hurt me I'm all in. If your gonna make a statement, you can't do it with exceptions. That is why there will always be a shortage at ABX most of the pilots WILL do what it takes to help each other with a few exceptions once you add up all the exceptions you have a status quo

NOTHIN WILL EVER CHANGE AND IT"S SAD

 

[AV8OR]

"What you want is to level the playing field. You cry the present system is unfair, and favors the senior at the expense of the junior. I understand, I was junior once, but from my POV you want to penalize me a second time. I was already penalized once when I was junior, now you want to take away the rights I have earned by attaining seniority. Hardly seems fair to me. I'll take the risk of being accused of being "me first" and ask how you plan to keep me from being penalized a second time."

Not unlike age 65 legislation no?

 

[penguin22]

Of course they'll be exceptions, but I highly doubt the vast majority of senior ABX pilots will stick around after 60.

As long as there's no penalty for leaving at 60.

 

[Clipperskip]

Of course they'll be exceptions, but I highly doubt the vast majority of senior ABX pilots will stick around after 60.

As long as there's no penalty for leaving at 60.

Penguin,

I think you might be surprised by how many of or brothers do choose to stay a while past 60. I could be wrong but I don't think I am.

 

[FreightBumper]

You're right, you lost your head .

As I'm sure you realize, I'm fairly senior. None the less, I don't get exactly what I want either. I don't get my first choice of line (actually, I do, because I generally don't bid lines I know I won't get). I don't get exact vacation I might like, I don't bid very much open time (I bid for time off) and rarely get exactly the open trip I would prefer. That is the system. I don't mind. I'll never be # 1. So be it. Seniority rules. I can live with it.

What you want is to level the playing field. You cry the present system is unfair, and favors the senior at the expense of the junior. I understand, I was junior once, but from my POV you want to penalize me a second time. I was already penalized once when I was junior, now you want to take away the rights I have earned by attaining seniority. Hardly seems fair to me. I'll take the risk of being accused of being "me first" and ask how you plan to keep me from being penalized a second time.

What is being asked here is to spread the opf around. The number of days will stay the same, but more people will have an option to bid it or not. Right now the only option is for the top 100 or so. That is a wrong that needs to be righted. I must say tho, your answer is spoken like a true senior pilot that has his ,so screw the others.FWIT