about sleeping

[spitfire1940]

Question for you freight dogs ...

I know a lot of freight pilots (like at Airnet) fly only four nights a week, maybe five sometimes. Do you stay on the same sleep schedule for your days off? Or do you convert back to sleeping during the dark hours for those two or three days?

I've been told two of the three crashes in Airnet's history were attributed to the pilot zonking out.

Also, if you're married and have kids, how does being an owl affect your home life?

Just curious how you guys handle it as I consider freight jobs.


Thanks

 

[mar]

You handle it the best you can

I think everyone handles their sleep a little differently.

Some don't handle it well at all and you can tell when they come to work.

For me, part of being a professional pilot is to have my life organized so that I will come to work as well rested as I can manage.

Unfortunately some companies are more sympathetic to this problem than others.

The bottom line (as I see it) is that the company will never be more generous than they're required to be. After all, every company is trying to do more with less.

The only solution is for the FAA to finally step up to the plate and make a serious revision to flight and duty regs.

Prior to Sept 11, I was optimistic the changes were near as there were several TV news shows about the problem of pilot fatigue.

Well, after 9/11 we know where all of the attention has been focused.

But as more and more research is done to prove that fatigue is tantamount to inebriation I think we'll see less and less tolerance of so-called 'tired' pilots.

As you know 'tired' is one thing; slurred speech, slowed reactions and inability to do basic math are quite another.

Fly safe.

 

[StarChecker]

I've been told two of the three crashes in Airnet's history were attributed to the pilot zonking out.

I believe those guys were working day jobs as well as working for Airnet nights. I used to try to have a normal life on the weekends. It never worked and I ended up being home every day during the week but seeing my fiancee once a week. I had a five-night run and the way I saw it...I had off one day a week. Friday was shot b/c I had to sleep and Sunday I had to go to bed so **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** early.

The only thing that kept me from staying at Airnet was the schedule...it's brutal. Other than that....it was a lot of fun and the best experience anywhere.

 

[cruxx@9]

At least the check haulers know when they have to fly. Not to say any job is harder than another, we all have certain aspects to our jobs that make them difficult. But the non skeds don't even know when they can go to sleep. Just last night for instance, I got up at eight am because I just couldn't sleep anymore, was up all day then got called at ten pm for a trip. Thankfully, it was a quick one, only about four hours of total flight time and I was in bed by 5am. That trip could have easily turned into a mexico trip, and my duty didn't expire until noon the next day. Without freight delays I could have easily been up for 30 hours straight. I've had those days, up all day then all night (30+ hours of being awake), flinally landing the 40 year old jet after a nonprecison approach to an airport I've never seen before.

I too was hoping the FAA was going to change the duty reg's for us freight dogs...all of us frieght dogs. But like Mar said, the FAA is focused elsewhere...in fact everyone is focused elsewhere media included. Until we drop a freighter into something that really makes the news due to lack of sleep (hopefully that will not happen) no one really cares about us. As if anyone really ever did.

Fortunately, I fly for a decent carrier that respects the crew's judgement of fatigue. I have never been called on the carpet for putting a trip to bed due to fatigue. I try to always get the freight delivered, but after that, the airplane is put to bed no matter what airport I'm at in those situations. My previous company, however, was not as considerate of the crew's decisions and it is a wonder that they have not lost more aircraft.

One of the most important factors in staying awake against the bio rythms is to be well hydrated. And then of course there is always caffine and nicotine!

fly safe

 

[Wiggums]

The safest thing to do is to sleep at the same time every night. If you sleep at night on your days off, then try to works nights the rest of the week you will feel tired while flying, even if you are properly rested. Plus, you’ll probably won’t sleep that well during the day, if you work four days at night your circadian rhythms will just be getting used to you sleeping during the day and you’ll have to fight that each week.

 

[uscpilot]

Get used to getting laid only on the weekends.
Unless you are one of those do it your self types.
usc

 

[sewerpiper]

Got a 5 night run. The weekends I try to be normal, but it sucks pretty bad. Monday hurts, as well as tuesday. Thank god for beer. It is pretty good at getting me through those rough times. Doctors should prescribe the stuff.

 

[Wang Chung]

Being a nonscheduled cargo guy was a complete nightmare as far as sleep goes.

When I did scheduled night runs, my "days off" sleep patterns GENERALLY followed my "working" sleep patterns except I usually fell asleep a few hours earlier....unless I stayed awake for some specific reason or whatever. Before I entered the aviation field, I worked lots of night shifts as an ER medical technician and EMT, and I found this same general "days off" pattern happened back then too.

When I was new to scheduled nightshift work, I thought I could force myself into certain sleep patterns on my days off, but it never worked. I just listened to what my body was telling me and I slept when I was tired. After awhile, I noticed the general pattern that I mentioned above.

It sorta sucks to be awake thru most of the night on your off time when there is nothing to do (i.e. on a weeknight and all your friends work normal day shifts). I've seen more "Love Connection" reruns and Bose Wave Radio infomercials than I care to remember (too poor to afford cable).

When you have errands to do during the day, that REALLY throws off your normal nightshift sleep groove, and it happened a lot.

Research shows that you're never quite as alert doing nightshift work as dayshift work, regardless of how accustomed you think you are to working the "backside of the clock".

Wang

 

[cruxx@9]

I've heard about the lack of sleep taking time off your life. Does anyone know how much or where the study is? I just want to know if I should really consider the "after life plan" it's probably closer than I think!

 

[spitfire1940]

thanks

Thanks guys for answering. Guess I see why nobody responded to the thread during the day, but there was a bunch of answers in the morning ... testimony to your sleep patterns, probably.

OK, so here's the deal as I see it:
Fly for a commuter and you can't afford to feed your family.
Fly freight and never see them.

Wonder if my wife could put up with this for a year or two.

About long-term effects: I thought that as long as you get enough sleep, it doesn't matter when you do it. But it would be good if cruxx or somebody (maybe me) could find that study.

That non-scheduled stuff sounds like a recipe for disaster. When you consider the stupid stuff people do on "go-pills" (like those ANG pilots lighting up the Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan last year), seems like drugs definitely aren't the answer.

 

[rettofly]

Re: thanks

About long-term effects: I thought that as long as you get enough sleep, it doesn't matter when you do it. But it would be good if cruxx or somebody (maybe me) could find that study.

I flew nonsched for almost 2 years. For me, the problem was my inability to sleep after 10AM. I'd get in around 0500 from an all-nighter, grab some breakfast and a shower, and off to bed as my bride was heading off to work.
Hang out during the day, do some chores, try to catch a nap and listen for the phone or the pager. Not much sleep there. Usual drill was for the pager to wake up about halfway through supper, so the meals AND sleep were interrupted.
Scared myself silly one night coming back to base with no F/O (we had high turnover). Lost 12 minutes in IMC with no autopilot. Told Dispatch when I phoned in my arrival that I would no longer do single pilot trips that had a chance of ending after midnight.

 

[Wang Chung]

About long-term effects: I thought that as long as you get enough sleep, it doesn't matter when you do it. But it would be good if cruxx or somebody (maybe me) could find that study

Maybe I can find that someplace in my human factors stuff.

There is a brand new book coming out (it should be available any time now- I have it on order from the publisher, www.ashgate.com) called Fatigue in Avation: A guide to Staying Awake at the Stick. The authors are military aviation human factors/psychology researchers, and the book should be an outstanding reference for aviation fatigue research (It is written for pilots, not academic poindexters if I understand correctly).

It might be worth ordering, but only if you're a human factors geek like me. Managers and ops people won't give a rat's ass, that's for sure.

Wang

 

[spitfire1940]

Wang--you're right that management doesn't give a rat's patootie (apologies to spelling nazis if I mucked that up). I know that sometimes I can't drive without falling asleep after 11pm. I would guess that flying through a thunderstorm would help keep you awake at the stick.

rettofly--you believe in guardian angels? 12 minutes?! Scared silly is a mild way of putting it. Guess you had it trimmed out pretty darn good. thanks for the story. Glad you're still among us.

Any of you read "Spirit of St. Louis" by Charles Lindburgh? He hadn't slept in more than 20 hours when he took off for his 33 hour NY-Paris flight. Lots of hallucinations and "lost minutes" on the first non-stop transatlantic. No wonder they called him Lucky Lindy.

 

[rettofly]

rettofly--you believe in guardian angels? 12 minutes?! Scared silly is a mild way of putting it. Guess you had it trimmed out pretty darn good. thanks for the story. Glad you're still among us.

I do believe! Ultra-smooth IMC over VA / WV en route to TYS. Thank God the ol' Bandit holds trim really well.

 

[Xfr8dog]

Two things thats helped me considerably are #1- spending the cash on a REALLY comfortable bed. When i get home and go to sleep on that thing I can get really long nights or (see #2) days of sleep... #2- I "blacked out" for all intents and purposes my bedroom, hung on old heavily painted canvas over the one window so it blocks out the sun better than a hotel room curtain. The combination lends itself to many long hours of sleep. Supposedly you can "catch up" to a certain extent.

Another thing a person might do is cut out alcohol. When youre under the influence you never get to the REM, or really deep sleep that your body needs to rejuvenate itself... of course i dont know many freight dogs that are able to do that...

 

[boxjockey]

Amen to that which is holy!!! BEEEEERRRRRR!!!!

Box

 

[wingnutt]

Re: thanks

Fly freight and never see them...

...i wouldnt say its quite that bad. the first company i flew for was mostly day stuff. the downside was that i would only end up seeing the family once a day; either just before they went to bed, or right after they woke up...but never both, unless it was a weekend

the second company was alot more night stuff, but it was all scheduled and like previously mentioned, a nice dark window covering did me wonders. id come home about 9am, see the family for an hour or two, sleep like a banshee, then see the family for another hour or two before heading out the door about 9pm. as far as things go, that worked out quite well.

the third company was the hardest. i was hired directly as a floater and life as i knew it went out the window. it was fun in the aspect that i had alot of time off with the family, but was basically a 24 hour on-call pilot. there was absolutely no-way to plan sleep, in fact most of the routes ended up splitting your sleep in half...4-5 hours in one city and 4-5 hours in another. that was the worst in my opinion.

to answer the question, i didnt have too much of a problem getting back on normal sleep schedules, it might have taken one day for me to adjust back, but never more than that. i had alot of fun in cargo, it actaully opened alot of doors which allowed me to get out and find a life. ive now got a week on/week off schedule that absolutely rocks

 

[spitfire1940]

Looks like painting the windows black is a must for daytime sleeping. I figure with the kids at school, there shouldn't be too much noise--so maybe it should work. Never know till you try. thanks to all who replied

 

[icefr8dawg]

autopilots and sleep

Anyone had the pleasure of waking up in the "to/from bank" as you pass the station still asleep? I think the ARC/Sperry autopilots in the old 310's do it best?


There is so much to say for the scheduled verses on demand cargo world. I never fell asleep during a scheduled run but used to do on demand/pager stuff in a smooth running/flying 402 that would put me to sleep quite easily. I think it was the more than adequate heat in the 402 compared to the 310's miserable heater. Not to mention the comfy cabin.

D

 

[uscpilot]

Re: autopilots and sleep

There is so much to say for the scheduled verses on demand cargo world. I never fell asleep during a scheduled run but used to do on demand/pager stuff in a smooth running/flying 402 that would put me to sleep quite easily. I think it was the more than adequate heat in the 402 compared to the 310's miserable heater. Not to mention the comfy cabin.

D

You sure it wasnt the crack in the good ole janitrol heater that was putting you to sleep? I was using mine the other night when I was cleared ..... ..... and then I woke up when the heater overtemped. I wish I could get those two hours back.
Kidding.
usc