About, JetBlue 190 pay

[Front Office]

The way I look at the 190 pay rates may differ from the way all of you see it, here's why..

They will be paid the same rate PER SEAT as the A320..

For example:
A-320 Capt. Year 5 $120.69 per hour <70 hrs and $181.04 per hour >70 hrs. That’s .77 cents and $1.16 per seat. Based on, 156 seats.

190 Capt. Year 5 $77.24 per hour <70 hrs and, $115.86 per hour >70 hrs. That’s .77 cents and $1.16 per seat for the 190. Based on, 100 seats.

I am I saying this is good? Sh!t NO!

Sure would be nice to see a base rate around .90-.95 cents a seat.

Then you figure, 82.5 hours a month plus a very nice profit sharing check (5 digits), PTO, good Per Diem, 3 crew bases, Stock and Stock Options. It sure could be a lot worse.

I will still make more here at jetBlue my first year as capt, then I did after 14 years at my previous MAJOR airline.
Keep in mind, we offer free unlimited jumpseats to most US registered 121 Flight Crews, yes both pilots and flight attendants.

Comments?

 

[Ted Striker]

The way I look at the 190 pay rates may differ from the way all of you see it, here's why..

They will be paid the same rate PER SEAT as the A320..

For example:
A-320 Capt. Year 5 $120.69 per hour <70 hrs and $181.04 per hour >70 hrs. That’s .77 cents and $1.16 per seat. Based on, 156 seats.

190 Capt. Year 5 $77.24 per hour <70 hrs and, $115.86 per hour >70 hrs. That’s .77 cents and $1.16 per seat for the 190. Based on, 100 seats.

I am I saying this is good? Sh!t NO!

Sure would be nice to see a base rate around .90-.95 cents a seat.

Then you figure, 82.5 hours a month plus a very nice profit sharing check (5 digits), PTO, good Per Diem, 3 crew bases, Stock and Stock Options. It sure could be a lot worse.

I will still make more here at jetBlue my first year as capt, then I did after 14 years at my previous MAJOR airline.
Keep in mind, we offer free unlimited jumpseats to most US registered 121 Flight Crews, yes both pilots and flight attendants.

Comments?

Are you trying to convince yourself or everyone else?

 

[jetblue320]

Read closer

Are you trying to convince yourself or everyone else?

I don't think he is trying to convince anyone. Since he (or she) already works at Jetblue the only option if he doesn't like it is quit, at least for now. I think the idea behind the post was to look at the rates from a different perspective. Something that failed to happen in the 270 some odd posts in the original thread! (which BTW, might be a forum record).

That's what we do here, post opioions and points of view.

 

[General Lee]

I think the current Jetblue pilots don't really have to worry about the EMB-190 rates, since most of the current FOs will be staying on the A320 and upgrading eventually. The problem here is that the new pay rates have set a low benchmark for every regional airline out there that flies jets with less than 100 seats, and any new 100 seat jet rates for other airlines that may eventually get them. Frustration is abound. It really wasn't the jetblue pilots' fault, but since they don't have a union--they couldn't have changed it anyway.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[flyingitalian]

Well here is a question that may in fact be thread creep, but here it goes. Ive heard about how this wonder jet is going to be a lower casm to operate...and good for small markets...increased fequency... new markets to be replaced by the a320 etc. However no one has really addressed the extra cost of adding a second type to the fleet. What do you think that cost is? I have recently read a report that puts the figure at 35% of casm of the jet that is in extra overhead, operating, maintenance and lost efficiency of crews. What do you think? Im sure lowe..whatever will chim in.

 

[jetblue320]

I think the current Jetblue pilots don't really have to worry about the EMB-190 rates, since most of the current FOs will be staying on the A320 and upgrading eventually. The problem here is that the new pay rates have set a low benchmark for every regional airline out there that flies jets with less than 100 seats, and any new 100 seat jet rates for other airlines that may eventually get them. Frustration is abound. It really wasn't the jetblue pilots' fault, but since they don't have a union--they couldn't have changed it anyway.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Good point Ol' (not old) Buddy. I still fail to understand how this rate is going to be a "benchmark" for the industry however. I mean, aren't rates at other unionized carriers negotiated? Granted, they will be factor for future management teams to use, but I still think even that would be a starting point for future negotiations. Help me out here, really, no flames.

C yaaa

 

[surplus1]

Maybe SWA will get scared and buy you guys (JB) out before you get big enough to really hurt them.

Fingers crossed.

 

[jetblue320]

Well here is a question that may in fact be thread creep, but here it goes. Ive heard about how this wonder jet is going to be a lower casm to operate...and good for small markets...increased fequency... new markets to be replaced by the a320 etc. However no one has really addressed the extra cost of adding a second type to the fleet. What do you think that cost is? I have recently read a report that puts the figure at 35% of casm of the jet that is in extra overhead, operating, maintenance and lost efficiency of crews. What do you think? Im sure lowe..whatever will chim in.

I'll answer this one. The EMB190 was never touted as having a lower CASM than the A320 at Jetblue. If you read or heard that, it was from someone that didn't know the facts. The fact is (and this is straight from our COO) that the EMB190 actually has a higher CASM than our A320's. It's about .01 higher if I remember correctly. I don't know the breakdown but if we are at .067 on the A320 then the EMB190 would be about .09 at your calculations of 35%. You are real close as I think the EMB190's projected CASM is at about .078 +/- a tad. Average out the two planes and that gives us a fleetwide CASM out about .07 or less (the A320 will continue to drop for a few more years) which is still about the lowest in the business. Do you think that is maybe why the EMB190 rates are what they are? I think yes.

It's all about CASM Baby, and don't forget that. Our Uppers never hide that fact. It's the #1 Ingredient in the Kool-Aid and we know it.

C yaaa

 

[Front Office]

General Lee,

It is important for all of us, either 320 or 190. We all work for the same great company with one thing in mind... To be here when we turn 60...

We are all brothers and sisters, 1 company. I do care very much of my brothers and sisters, flying the 190. I just think if we had our seat pay increased it would be a benefit to ALL of our pilots.

Comments?

 

[General Lee]

Frontoffice,


I know, but those future pilots aren't there YET, and it is easier to take things that may not affect you much. If the Capt rates on the EMB-190 are that low--even for a 12 year pilot--then you probably won't be bidding it. That is what your management is counting on--all qualified people flying it--but less longevity and lower wages. Hey, they have to pass the checkrides, and they will be qualified--and most will probably wait awhile before they move up to the bus---hence giving Jetblue a B-scale on a smaller airplane. I can understand you wanting to stay at your airline until age 60----I hopefully have 21 more years at DL---atleast I hope so....


Jetblue320,

Well, your new rates are affecting people right now who are in current negotiations--like ASA, COEX, and any carrier who might be getting future 100 seaters. It will also affect your future rates on your A320s---if the EMB rates were higher, your future A320 rates may have been a lot better than today's rates. I am not blaming you or any Jetblue pilot---since those rates were imposed on you guys. But, it still is frustrating, since my first Captainship at Delta (hopefully in the future)---will now likely be on a 100 seater, and the rates will likely be lower......

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jbucpt]

. It really wasn't the jetblue pilots' fault, but since they don't have a union--they couldn't have changed it anyway.


Bye Bye--General Lee

sure, and with ALPA'S new standard, i would have to give back some of those rates.

------

"We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has."

 

[jetblue320]

Jetblue320,

Well, your new rates are affecting people right now who are in current negotiations--like ASA, COEX, and any carrier who might be getting future 100 seaters. It will also affect your future rates on your A320s---if the EMB rates were higher, your future A320 rates may have been a lot better than today's rates. I am not blaming you or any Jetblue pilot---since those rates were imposed on you guys. But, it still is frustrating, since my first Captainship at Delta (hopefully in the future)---will now likely be on a 100 seater, and the rates will likely be lower......

Bye Bye--General Lee

Well, I find that hard to believe that our rates, which were just released to us and not even in effect yet, and not officially available to the public sector are being used in any airline negotiations. And, please note I did not say that our rates would not be a factor in other airline negotiations but what I was alluding to was that our rates will not be forced or mandated into other airlines' contracts. To my knowledge, these things are negotiated at union carriers. Maybe I am speaking in tongues but it is still hard for me to believe this scenario. Although I have never worked for a major or regional (I am an old cargo slug) I understand the brotherhood of rates amongst legacy carriers but even you (of all people) know that is a thing of the past. I never said I liked it, I am just trying to understand and adjust for the future of this profession. And, as I have said in the past, call me selfish, but in a few more years hopefully I will be on a big boat somewhere with a cocktail and a fat cigar looking back to the good times. There were many and to me, that is the secret.

Take care Pal and thanks for your opinion(s).

 

[embdrvr]

Y'all Jet Blue types can rationalize prostitution until you're "blue" in the face but it doesn't change a thing.

You've been dealt a sh$tty hand by Nerleman.

The question in my mind is how you'll react.

I hope I'm wrong but I fear you'll just happily go with the flow.

You should have researched your boss and why he got fired by Southwest after the sale of Morris Air. He's nothing more than a friendly version of Lorenzo. When you shake hands with him check to make sure you still have your fingers and ring. It doesn't take a marketing genius to make money by paying people a fraction of what the competition pays.

 

[iflynights]

Well guys, I think the rates stink. Period.


I understand the principle of low CASM, but I also understand the principle of better wages. Most all of us were expecting a much deserved 10-15% wage increase and th EMB wages 10-15 bucks higher as well. These rates are still very, very low compared to the industry. We have no retirement so we have to save for it. I don't think the 3% 401k match is going to pay for squat when we turn 60.

I have been here over a year and my options are so under water that it isn't funny. I never counted on them to be worth anything (but hoped they would be) so that isn't keeping me happy at today's pay rates. I don't think 15% across the board is out of the question. Upgrades are going to be running 2 years + soon, and some of us hoped to move to the 190 for better QOL. At these rates I wouldn't bother putting my ticket on the line.

Needless to say, I don't drink the Koolaid and think that these proposed wages are a kick in the teeth. I have also put out apps to Fedex, SWA, and even sent a resume to Virgin due to a lack of faith in these guys. I have talked to other FOs and many are doing the same. I hope management realizes they undercut us and will do the right thing and increase wages to the most productive pilots in the industry. Who else flew 90 hours last month?

 

[General Lee]

jbucapt,


It is OBVIOUS that you don't like ALPA, and without our high rates---your starting A320 rates could have been closer to your new EMB-190 rates--which $uck. We haven't lowered the bar---YOU HAVE----or your management did. We have kept the rates high for as long as we could--and you should THANK US for it. We have run into trouble now---but if you agree with OUR MANAGEMENT that is was all our fault--then you are WRONG also.


Jetblue320,

I hope you do get that great career--everyone would like to stay at one airline until they are 60 and retire onto that yacht. It sounds like you have made a good choice and I hope it works out for you. I am not frustrated with you---or even jbucapt for the low rates that were imposed on you--but I just think you should see them for what they are--and feel lucky you don't have to fly the new EMBs for that low--you are lucky at Jetblue(being on the bus). Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

Iflynights,

Well, sorry to see you leave, and I agree that pay should have been richer, but before you go, I want you to ponder a few things. I am curious about the pay at VUSA. What do you think it will be, bearing in mind that neither Virgin Express nor Virgin Atlantic pay is high. The "bearded one" does not seem to value pilots, I suppose. As far as Reid is concerned, the General has a better take on him.

Who do you think VUSA will be competing against? It is supposed to be an LCC, so there you go. If it has to high a CASM, it will not work. If it is meant to compete against SWA, AAI, IAIR, jetblue, spirit, Ted and Song, then it needs to be competetive on price.

As far as your options being under water, that is hardly jetblues fault. I think we can both agree, that it has the potential to be a good deal and it was meant to be such, however, due to speculation by traders, it got way ahead of itself. Sadly, some people are paying the price, you included. I am not saying past performance equals future performance, but do take a look at SWA stock.

FedEx is a great company, great benefits, great pay, interesting flying, but flying at night for extended periods of time is hard. Ask those who do it and have done it, it ages you really fast. You will probably spend two years working the panel over there, unless some serious expansion takes place, so spending another year or two before you get the lef seat at jetblue might not be that bad a deal. To get the same pay at FedEx as the jetblue A-320 Captain rate, you have to be on 8th year 727 F/O payscale, although I could not tell you how long upgrade is at Fedex, TonyC would know. I think SWA is running 6-7 years, you might make it in 5, but untill then, you would have made less than the jetblue 320 Captain rate. SWA does not have a DB plan, they have 401K like jetblue and stock options, although their 401K match is 7.3%.

So, like I said, best of luck with your choice, I sincerely hope it works out. As for me, I will stay at jetblue and continue to make it a better place to be, if I cannot get increased pay, due to competetive concerns, then I am going to work on getting a better benefits package. As the company grows, the 190 proves itself and the profits stabilize, I have little doubt, that pay will increase

 

[iflynights]

Dizel8,

Virgin isn't a reality yet, but thought I might send a resume anyway. You never know.

Jetblue is a good place to work, good people and all, but I don't want to be another piece of the Casm puzzle. Keeping costs low is great while you are growing but the EMB rates are downright criminal. It hurts my conscience as a pilot to work under those conditions (whether I fly them or not). I should upgrade early next spring but would leave for the right job. That should make the 300+ people behind me happy!

I never blamed the company for the stock options. I always expected them to be worthless, but obviously hoped for big things. And, who knows, they might be. Retirement plans are probably not going to be here much longer for alot of companies. But at least wages should be decent enough to be able to save for your retirement. I also don't expect to be working 90 hours a month for the rest of my life. Just like flying nights (which we do at Jetblue alot as well) hurts your life span, so does working that many hours.

It is simply a choice you have to make, and if a SWA calls, mine will be to resign. Good luck to you and thanks for the excellent insight!

 

[tkr-toad]

Nice post, Dizel.

Well said

 

[embdrvr]

jbucapt,


It is OBVIOUS that you don't like ALPA, and without our high rates---your starting A320 rates could have been closer to your new EMB-190 rates--which $uck. We haven't lowered the bar---YOU HAVE----or your management did. We have kept the rates high for as long as we could--and you should THANK US for it. We have run into trouble now---but if you agree with OUR MANAGEMENT that is was all our fault--then you are WRONG also.

GL,
DAL pilots will undoubtedly take concessions but only in the face of extreme adversity. What's pathetic is that Jblu is making money hand over fist yet is still determined to lower the bar below that of the lowly regionals. Pretty soon JetBlue will be a major in every sense of the word. Big airplanes and over a billion in revenues. However codeshare pilots at CMR and QX will make more money flying smaller equipment.
Here's some thoughts for Blue-Aid drinkers:
1. Refuse voluntary overtime
2. Taxi at a safe speed
3. You can't go wrong with filed routes
4. If it breaks at an outstation do what your SOP tells you to do. Write it up and let them bring out contract MX.

 

[TonyC]

To get the same pay at FedEx as the jetblue A-320 Captain rate, you have to be on 8th year 727 F/O payscale, although I could not tell you how long upgrade is at Fedex, TonyC would know.

As of the latest bid, Left seat of the 727 is just under 7 years.