AAI & WN.....what's that gonna look like?

[Lear70]

And it's always the same 10 @ssholes posting on here! I must have half this thread on my ignore list!

OK, that's funny...

(hope you can read this)

 

[PCL_128]

Funny, I know a couple people turned down by AirTran then hired by SWA.

Same here.

Not necessarily. Ask the number one guy at Mesa or any other QOL sh!thole airline how their QOL life is.

Just having a better system can make a lower seniority dude have better QOL than a more senior one at a terrible work rules place!

True, but I'd take our schedules over SWA's any day of the week.

 

[Lear70]

True, but I'd take our schedules over SWA's any day of the week.

YOU would... because you like the Standups.

Most of our pilots would be a lot happier with the scheduling efficiencies at SWA and the resultant higher QOL, but Tabor could do the same thing here if he simply allowed the system to do what it was designed to do.

QOL from schedule efficiencies and days off isn't enough to base a seniority award over, especially when they can easily be tweaked for the better or worse at the drop of a dime. Nor are wages at different carriers when they operate similar equipment - great contracts through negotiations or crap contracts through bankruptcy awards are only a matter of timing and market fluctuations, given similar unit costs.

If we were talking about merging with CAL where the pilots of AirTran would, for the first time, have the potential to fly heavy metal internationally and the accompanying wage potential that comes with it (CAL will likely secure hefty wage increases for this flying above SWA SNB pay rates), then that would be an argument for an arbitrator.

But with comparable equipment, don't look for those arguments to hold with a SWA / AAI SLI arbitrator decision (based on what I've read from the Nicolau award in the actual long document).

 

[schafjet]

PCL,

Its not DoH and you know it. DoH is not recognized by ALPA merger/frag policy OR A/M. Besides, Kelly has stated they're looking for a bankrupt 737 operator. That would be Sun Country. And those jamokes would probably eagerly take a staple just to get a whiff of SWA behinds.

I resemble that remark, but don't be so sure. Some integration for SCA guys would be nice, we have saved this airline from the brink on a number of occasions, it would be a nice gesture. I know, I dreaming, it's a long shot to get bought out by SWA anyways. Good luck to who ever it may be.

 

[MINIME]

SWA will buy, merge, go after, any operator they deem necessary for their continued success. I doubt many pilots will have a say in that part of the equation. Depending on the urgency of the need, pilots may or may not have as much influence as was the case with F9.

From my untrained, and perhaps naive position, I see a SWA/AAI merger as "checkmate." Instant access to perhaps the biggest market in the world. Access to an operation that has already started some international flying. Gain of an operator that has proven to be able to compete "head to head" against the biggest airline in the world, profitably. And last but not least, a pilot group that I think will mesh well with the LUV group. Are there going to some rough edges? You bet! But I think they're all workable, just like DAL/NWA.

If that opportunity presents itself, it'll be a monetary and stability gain for both groups. But what do I know, " I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night, however."

 

[zman]

Southwest wouldnt want to buy Airtran, especially with Delta as being its main rival. The only reason Southwest was able to be so successful was cause of their fuel hedges. Now that those hedges are gone their cost per seat mile isnt even close to Jetblue on comparison. All the airlines right now are waiting for somebody to fail so they can "grow" or "move in" to pick up the pieces. Right now all airlines are currently in damage control trying to survive a weak economy and fuel prices that are averaging 60-70 bucks all while trying to make money. Airtran and Delta already have a happy median. Southwest knows this and is one of the main reasons why they have not already come to ATL in the first place. Southwest does not have the money to battle a strong legacy carrier like Continental, Delta, or American airlines in the SAME CITY AIRPORT ON A LARGE SCALE. Also when I mean large scale I mean greater then 20% of the airport market share for all of you that will start screaming LAX or something. The only merger with Airtran that you would see Delta not go crazy over would be someone like Alaska airlines. At that point Delta would be able to codeshare with another airline in its hub to get stranded passengers out. If you notice lately Skyteam, Star Alliance, or One world are just starting to look like large airlines. I know what your thinking yes Southwest has over XX amount of billion in the bank. But let me ask you this, do you really think they will want to waste 30%, 40%, or even 50% of that money fighting for ATL? How much will they get out of the market of ATL? Would it reduce their cash flow to a dangerous level? Will they lose their credit ratings by taking such a risky move? Look at it this way if Southwest was thinking to buy Airtran would they be moving in to MKE to spend millions of dollars when they have plans all along to buy Airtran? Why would you spend money when you are already planning to acquire it? Doesnt make sense I think everyone knows that a Southwest merger with Airtran is nothing but a pipedream to some and a nightmare for others.

 

[Fubijaakr]

minime,

Your comments could be easily applied to an AS/SWA merger as well. The added benefit for SWA is you wouldn't have to lose 57 717s and retrain 2/3rds of the pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

Most of our pilots would be a lot happier with the scheduling efficiencies at SWA

I'm not so sure. I don't think our pilot group would necessarily be interested in 7:59 minute days filled with 20 minute turns. It's efficient as hell, but it's also a pain in the ass when you're at work.

 

[ron burgundy]

I'm not so sure. I don't think our pilot group would necessarily be interested in 7:59 minute days filled with 20 minute turns. It's efficient as hell, but it's also a pain in the ass when you're at work.

Instead of the 11:59 mins sched duty day with 7:59 mins of flying (which is really about 8:30 mins,but they make the block times fit their needs) with a 3 hour sit time in CAK,MCO,FNT? Oh yeah, and a 10:45 minute layover in the middle of east bumfudge arriving at 1 am!

 

[OldManPilot]

And all of you wonder why our profession is in such a state of dispair. You fight like a bunch of children. Why should someone with 25 yrs of experience be stapled to the bottom just because of any type of buyout or merger. Experience is what matters. We should learn to think what is best for our craft. Pilots with more experience should be higher on the seniority list. DOH is and should always be the way mergers should go. Everyone junior is always so bitter about the chance of someone being placed senior to them. In the AAI - SWA scenario, AAI would also bring 125+ aircraft. Why should SW pilots be placed in a higher seniority to fly those a/c and put the guys that have been flying them at the bottom (staple)? That makes no sence. If SW purchased AAI and did not buy the A/C then it would be a good Idea. Why not look at where 125+ A/C + crew would fit into the seniority and start from there. Does that make any sence?

 

[firstthird]

DOH is and should always be the way mergers should go.

a defacto national seniority list. it is very unlikely to ever work and for all of the reasons that have been discussed on FI for time immemorial.

I submit to you that ideas like yours have consequences. M/B had unintended consequences. surprise. laws never have those. and the unintended consequences of M/B are that typical airline managements will use it as bludgeon to force integrations in record time, probably bringing USair/AWA type problems to anyone who merges. and the better airline managements will avoid it altogether, either through a contingency offer like SWA did or by buying less then 50% through a chp 7 sale, sans pilots.

those very senior guys at bankrupt airlines still will be w/o a job. and they won't have been stapled.

we don't have to like it but it is what it is. pie in the sky, perfect world, I take my seniority wherever I go scenarios are not going to happen anytime soon.

pilots at weaker carriers with less pay and worse work rules need to get their minds around the idea that DOH or relative seniority is not all there is. there is career expectations. there is current pay and QOL. there is the acquiring carrier and there is the carrier that can't even get 100 million in exit financing from ANYONE.

F9 and WN didn't happen. good. they didn't want to be here and the majority of WN pilots would prefer to grow organically. I'd rather not acquire anyone else, ever. Herb and Colleen were both quoted "never again" after the Morris deal. I guess our corporate memory is getting weak. Hopefully this F9 dance has renewed and refreshed the reasons for 'never again.'

this industry is a tough one. we picks our airline (or it picks us is probably more accurate) and we takes our chances.

p.s. I notice that you have a 'happy 30th chatauqua' as your tagline. so if SWA/Republic merged, you're implying that DOH is the fair way to go? just trying to pin down how far you are willing to carry your argument. Allegiant is a narrow body operator. if they merged with Airtran or Jetblue or SWA, should the keep their seats and relative seniority?

 

[Cometman]

And all of you wonder why our profession is in such a state of dispair. You fight like a bunch of children. Why should someone with 25 yrs of experience be stapled to the bottom just because of any type of buyout or merger. Experience is what matters. We should learn to think what is best for our craft. Pilots with more experience should be higher on the seniority list. DOH is and should always be the way mergers should go. Everyone junior is always so bitter about the chance of someone being placed senior to them. In the AAI - SWA scenario, AAI would also bring 125+ aircraft. Why should SW pilots be placed in a higher seniority to fly those a/c and put the guys that have been flying them at the bottom (staple)? That makes no sence. If SW purchased AAI and did not buy the A/C then it would be a good Idea. Why not look at where 125+ A/C + crew would fit into the seniority and start from there. Does that make any sence?

If you are one of the unlucky individuals that work for a company that cannot survive then that is life. Nobody said life was fair. Why should
anybody have the right to go from Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 and benefit?
Some people die young and some people die old. You can feel sorry for people with hardships but that is life. It could happen to you just like it happen to them. Remember the old saying "you feel sorry for the guy with no shoes until you go around the corner and see the guy with no legs".

 

[Scope out RJ's]

And it's always the same 10 @ssholes posting on here! I must have half this thread on my ignore list!

Actually, including you, it's 11 @ssholes!:laugh:

 

[Quimby]

Southwest wouldnt want to buy Airtran, especially with Delta as being its main rival. The only reason Southwest was able to be so successful was cause of their fuel hedges. Now that those hedges are gone their cost per seat mile isnt even close to Jetblue on comparison. All the airlines right now are waiting for somebody to fail so they can "grow" or "move in" to pick up the pieces. Right now all airlines are currently in damage control trying to survive a weak economy and fuel prices that are averaging 60-70 bucks all while trying to make money. Airtran and Delta already have a happy median. Southwest knows this and is one of the main reasons why they have not already come to ATL in the first place. Southwest does not have the money to battle a strong legacy carrier like Continental, Delta, or American airlines in the SAME CITY AIRPORT ON A LARGE SCALE. Also when I mean large scale I mean greater then 20% of the airport market share for all of you that will start screaming LAX or something. The only merger with Airtran that you would see Delta not go crazy over would be someone like Alaska airlines. At that point Delta would be able to codeshare with another airline in its hub to get stranded passengers out. If you notice lately Skyteam, Star Alliance, or One world are just starting to look like large airlines. I know what your thinking yes Southwest has over XX amount of billion in the bank. But let me ask you this, do you really think they will want to waste 30%, 40%, or even 50% of that money fighting for ATL? How much will they get out of the market of ATL? Would it reduce their cash flow to a dangerous level? Will they lose their credit ratings by taking such a risky move? Look at it this way if Southwest was thinking to buy Airtran would they be moving in to MKE to spend millions of dollars when they have plans all along to buy Airtran? Why would you spend money when you are already planning to acquire it? Doesnt make sense I think everyone knows that a Southwest merger with Airtran is nothing but a pipedream to some and a nightmare for others.

The only reason since '71 was a few years worth of hedges?

 

[DonVerita]

minime,

Your comments could be easily applied to an AS/SWA merger as well. The added benefit for SWA is you wouldn't have to lose 57 717s and retrain 2/3rds of the pilots.

(57) 717's? Where did you get that number from. We have (86) of them.

Why do you automatically assume SWA would want to get rid of the 717's? The 717's are a very efficient airplane, technologically more advanced than the 737's, and the passengers love them. Even Gary Kelly has said that SWA would not have a problem with a second fleet type as long as it was a good fit. The 717 meets that mark.

 

[OurMoney1]

Southwest wouldnt want to buy Airtran, especially with Delta as being its main rival. The only reason Southwest was able to be so successful was cause of their fuel hedges. Now that those hedges are gone their cost per seat mile isnt even close to Jetblue on comparison. All the airlines right now are waiting for somebody to fail so they can "grow" or "move in" to pick up the pieces. Right now all airlines are currently in damage control trying to survive a weak economy and fuel prices that are averaging 60-70 bucks all while trying to make money. Airtran and Delta already have a happy median. Southwest knows this and is one of the main reasons why they have not already come to ATL in the first place. Southwest does not have the money to battle a strong legacy carrier like Continental, Delta, or American airlines in the SAME CITY AIRPORT ON A LARGE SCALE. Also when I mean large scale I mean greater then 20% of the airport market share for all of you that will start screaming LAX or something. The only merger with Airtran that you would see Delta not go crazy over would be someone like Alaska airlines. At that point Delta would be able to codeshare with another airline in its hub to get stranded passengers out. If you notice lately Skyteam, Star Alliance, or One world are just starting to look like large airlines. I know what your thinking yes Southwest has over XX amount of billion in the bank. But let me ask you this, do you really think they will want to waste 30%, 40%, or even 50% of that money fighting for ATL? How much will they get out of the market of ATL? Would it reduce their cash flow to a dangerous level? Will they lose their credit ratings by taking such a risky move? Look at it this way if Southwest was thinking to buy Airtran would they be moving in to MKE to spend millions of dollars when they have plans all along to buy Airtran? Why would you spend money when you are already planning to acquire it? Doesnt make sense I think everyone knows that a Southwest merger with Airtran is nothing but a pipedream to some and a nightmare for others.

Well said....

SWA is sitting on a pile of cash with rising costs and with every passing quarter looking for new ways to generate revenue to keep their years of momentum going. The F9 deal should give you some insight as to what kind of deals they are hunting for. F9 was culturally in their footprint and would have given them an edge in DEN at a great price. No harsh words for my brothers at Airtran but your managment has done a job on your rank and file over the last 2 years. Your pilot group is united because of leaderships constant antics. Couple that with a profitable base line (that would not go at a bargain basement price) and it just doesn't look like something Gary and team would want to get involved in.

 

[OurMoney1]

deleted

 

[Ty Webb]

I would agree with that on the surface, but it took five years of Lorenzo-style tactics to push the pilots to the point we're at now.

Historically, the AAI pilots have been as productive and well-adjusted as any other pilot group, including SWA. Given a management team and corporate culture like SWA, this Pilot Group would fit in fine.

 

[Dude]

Hey OldManPilot,

If your "experience argument" were valid, then I'd be senior to every kernel on the property. Since it isn't, you get what you have negotiated or hired into.

Dude

 

[Juniority]

the real tragedy is....

....there's some poor woman (or guy, not that there's anything wrong with that) who has to spend their days and nights with PCL.

Can you imagine listening to this guy's opinions day after day. I only log in to Flightinfo about once a month and he's already got me looking around for a plastic fork to gouge my eyes out with.