A unique problem with Legacies vs LCCs

[General Lee]

There is a unique problem with Legacy carriers vs the LCCs, and that is longevity. This quote came from a lawyer testifying at a USAir hearing today about the pay cuts:




"Davis testified that US Airways faces a uniquely difficult situation as it attempts to bring its wages down. Because so many US Airways workers have been laid off in the last three years, those who remain have the most seniority and earn top scale. Meanwhile, expanding low-cost carriers like Southwest and JetBlue Airways Corp. are hiring new employees who earn bottom scale. As a result, even if US Airways' pay scales match those at Southwest, US Airways' labor costs will still be higher."




What to do? Well, my airline is closing bases and making it harder on the senior folks. Often the furloughed people at a corporation are the younger, fresher employees that actually are excited to have the job. They aren't the jaded ones that always complain. It is an interesting problem indeed. Some of the jobs need experience---and some may not.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

General,

What remedy for this "problem" would you propose?

 

[Publishers]

problem

This is sort of the problem I was alluding to on another thread. Flight attendants are a good example. In the older days, the average time a flight attendant remained at a company was 2 years. Now people consider it a career and stay well past their prime, have negotiated wages based on that seniority, and so the cost of the average has risen considerably.

In some companies, they try and fight this by offering early retirement incentives, etc. For USAir, their is little way to deal with it. Even when you force it through courts, you then have a bunch of disgruntled personnel.

 

[dlredline]

This is sort of the problem I was alluding to on another thread. Flight attendants are a good example. In the older days, the average time a flight attendant remained at a company was 2 years. Now people consider it a career and stay well past their prime, have negotiated wages based on that seniority, and so the cost of the average has risen considerably.

In some companies, they try and fight this by offering early retirement incentives, etc. For USAir, their is little way to deal with it. Even when you force it through courts, you then have a bunch of disgruntled personnel.

Which also makes me curious when I read what USAirways said to the judge yesterday:

"If the public perceives us as running out of cash, there will be more booking away," said US Airways Chief Financial Officer David M. Davis.

As if the alternative, massive cuts in pay and benefits equating to a highly unmotivated and "disgruntled" workforce,will help bring those same customers back. I'm not sure these guys know what they're talking about at this moment.

Good observations, P.

Red

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1 and Publishers,


I don't know what a remedy would be. I am still for "seniority" and all of that, especially in the pilot ranks. But, there are some jobs that do NOT rely on "experience", and those are the ones that currently have an over abundance of "seniors" (stews and gate agents)---but really can't be touched due to Age Discrimination. After furloughing most of our young and fun stews, we are left with 14,000 stews that are older, meaner, and make a lot more money than the newhires at Jetblue and Airtran. Some of the gate agents are like that too, and they are all front line employees that first come in contact with our paying passengers. So, where next to cut pay to try to pay the bills? The answer: Pilots and Mechanics-----people that are needed for their experience levels.



I have no real answer.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Publishers]

systems

There are a number of systems that work well when things are going good, not as many when it comes to dealing with when things do not.

Seniority works fine when it is used for bidding trips I suppose although the process costs a small fortune and takes up considerable resources. The main problem is that over the years, the senior guy makes the great money and the guy at the bottom does not. to the airline, the key number is the average. All that gets screwed up when the bottom, the first let go, disappears and the average climbs when you need it to fall.

It would be interesting to see the numbers if an airline laid off 5000 of the top senior people rather than the bottom.

The other day on a different thread, I was debating Netjets economics with someone who does not understand the basic economic numbers of that operation. The key number is crew cost per hour by type. At Netjets, there is a good deal of flying around deadhead to provide a service level.

Their customer is constantly comparing their offering with what he can field his own aircraft for. All that deadhead affects how many crews are required to maintain the service and their pay effects the crew cost per hour.

These issues both at US and Netjets are examples of why this is not as easy as it seems. Sometimes when management is yelling -- Heh our costs are high, they can be even after you got rid of people. The ones left cost more and may not be as productive.

Once you get to a certain point, your only way out is to sell your way or fold.

 

[Whirlwind]

I recall years ago that Southwest only hired young, attractive ladies to be flight attendents, and that the goal was to keep them all in their 20's if memory serves.

Of course time passed and lawsuits were filed, ending that practice.

The problem is that no matter how long an employee has been with a company, some jobs have an upper dollar limit of pay. It is absurd to pay $60,000 a year to a gate agent, regardless of how long that person has been working there.

A friend of mine used to be a flight attendent for American Airlines, she did that for 7 years before becoming a FO for a regional. She made 4 times more money as a FA for American than she does as a pilot. That's sad IMHO...

My 2 cents...

 

[General Lee]

Why, as a senior stew, would you leave a great job like that? On a recent European trip (for fun--staying at the same hotel as the crew) I noticed many, many senior stews (and most were totally out of shape......but that is another thread) meeting downstairs for dinner, and they were all talking about the shopping they just did that day......Why would you want to leave? You get to go to Europe, with your friends that you have known at the airline for 30+ years, and shop and eat great food---all on your airline's dime once a week. It's social hour in Europe with your friends. I have heard rumors of the good ole days when they used to serve full meal services on one hour flights from ATL--MCO, back on the DC-8s when we had them, and how much fun the layovers were----but guess what? All of those pilots back then are long gone and retired (most of the ones that tell me about it now were junior FE's back then)---but the STEWS NEVER LEFT.



As far as the gate agents, some are older and have seniority. But, some of them are younger and paid nothing, and they have major attitude. I was walking through the C-Concourse a couple years back during Xmas rush, and I saw a passenger CHOKING an ASA gate agent. I think the Delta ones are paid a little more, but some have bad attitudes, and I have said something once or twice, reminding them that they have "CUSTOMER SERVICE" jobs. But, they don't like us pilots much either, and the gate agents really hate the stews even more. I love this industry. (I do like my job....I really do)


Bye Bye--General Lee