A&P to PFT or College?

[geode]

I got a son who, graduated with an associates degree in aviation technology, passed his airframe and powerplant exams and now is a licensed A&P. However, as fate would have it he got licensed just 5 months after the 9-11 tragedy....no jobs for a fresh out of school A&P especially for one who had a few too many speeding tickets that interviewers did not like. He worked a short while for a local air cargo place until it went belly up inside of 6 months. So to let some time pass to get a 3 year clean driving record, he has been a college kid working toward a bachelors degree at a local college that has no PFT program while getting his pilot training in on the side. Now that he has his private pilot cert. he wants to stop the college route and go to an ATP school and get all his ratings.
I feel he should continue the slow route and transfer to a college that has a PFT program. He feels a ATP who is a licensed A&P is as good or better than an ATP with a 4yr bachelors. The $$$ spent is about the same whether its is spent in 1 year at an ATP school, verses 3 years at a college.

 

[geode]

So, votes and opinions please. Is an A&P certified ATP as good as a ATP and a bachelors? Which would you hire?

 

[pilotman2105]

Bachelor's Degree

Everything that I've heard says the Bachelor's degree is worth 10x it's weight in gold in this industry. But then again, I'm not exactly an authority on that matter. That's just what I've heard in classes and from various speakers and airline managers.

 

[pilotman2105]

Actually, do a search for "college degree" (or something similar) on the forum here. There seems to be posts littered all over about varying opinions on the matter. Some think they're a waste of time and a hindrance to building flight hours, while others think that they are good. Check it out...

 

[geode]

Thanks pilot man. I'll look around the site. I think my son drives a good point not doing the academia stuff. He has an associates degree after all and an A&P license, which means he has a college degree even though it is ne a 4 year degree. I'd much rather hire a pilot with an A & P over a bachelors anyday if I were managing an airline.
I can sort of speak from experience about the bachelors degree value. I have worked in academia at a major University for over 20 years as an electronics and instrumentation support specialist. I have worked hand in hand with dozens of students over the years. A few have frightened me when thay say they are wanting to be a surgeon or something when they can't even follow basic instructions that has more then 3 steps to it. A bachelors degree only gets your "foot in the door" and many students I have worked with are only doing the 4 year thing because Mom and Pop are paying for it and they openly admit it. Its an easy 4 years of living allowing for partying and fun 80% and school work 20% or even less. I can summarize college as being nothing much more than 24 hour daycare for post teens for a large chunk of the student population here. Parents park their kids here in a relatively sheltered and structured environment, hope they stay inside the "virtual" boundries of the campus environment and "grow up", add a few years of life experiences, without them dealing with them 24/7. Its pre-adulthood training and nothing much more. Not every person needs to go this route to be responsible for themselves and to others and one does not need to take 15 credits of "historical studies and 15 credits of "philosophy" etc.. to be a "well-rounded" responsible adult.
I guess I have answered my own concern about college over ATP and stop worrying about which is best. He will find out and he has a lifetime to get that bachelor's degree if he finds he really needs it and a lifetime to pay off that student loan. I just hope employment recruiters don't turn out to be so baised as to make a bachelor's degree the absolute minimum standard for employment by default.

 

[skydraulic]

Tell him to get the degree now while it's easy. He's gonna need it alot more than that A&P to get on with an airline as a pilot (if that's the long term goal). Although I may personally agree a little with some of your/his rationalization, it is not the case. However an A&P may be helpful early on in his career or to get some corporate gig. A bachelor's degreeless resume can easily find its way to the 'trash pile' via a recruiter scanning thousands of resumes (most of which will have 4 year degrees). I have yet to see any airline (121) list an A&P ticket as a preferred or minimum qualification for a first officer position....a couple examples.

http://www.southwest.com/careers/pilots.html

http://jetblue.com/workhere/jobdescdisplay.aspx?jbid=230&jblocation=39

He will find out and he has a lifetime to get that bachelor's degree if he finds he really needs it

This is easier said than done. Try going back to school when you are working a constantly changing schedule, on call, changing bases, changing jobs etc... although online classes (before my day) may make this process a little easier.

I'd recommend him going to a university that has a flight program. Wouldn't hurt for him to start the networking now that may pay off in the future. Pilot recommendations from within are usually the best kind. Good luck!

 

[Timebuilder]

The degree is far more valuable over the long term than the ratings. Since he is college age, he has his entire life to get those ratings. The degree will help him get through furloughs, particularly if the degree is in something that takes place outside of the cockpit, or outside of aviation altogether.

I know one guy whom was able to retire from flying checks at night to return to a law practice. One guy here became a paralegal when he could not find airline work. When I was laid off, I fell back on skills I learned as a broadcaster.

Always prepare a "plan B." A good plan includes studies outside of flying.

Tell him to stay in school, get a BS or BA in something "useful," like teaching or engineering. Keep him flying on the side, and looking for an A&P position while studying. After a couple of years as an A&P, and some decent pilot time, he will be a valuable asset to charter operators because there will be things he can do to get the plane back in the air that others aren't permitted to do, or simply don't know how.

 

[avbug]

Geode,

If an applicant intends to go for an airline, he or she should have posession of a Bachelor degree from an accredited school. Holding any FAA certification does not take the place of a degree.

Holding a degree is almost a universal requirement by most employers. Holding a mechanic certificate is not.

I've held mechanic certification for many years, and still work on airplanes regularly. I have been employed at various times partially because of my ability to "fix what I break." However, in such cases, one often ends up spending more time turning wrenches than flying. At a small company with 27 pilots, I was the senior pilot, and still at the bottom of the rotation list because I had greater duties in the hangar that I couldn't seem to escape.

Does posession of a mechanic certificate weigh significantly in an airline interview? In a word, no.

I hold five different FAA certificates...the only one that is significant in an interview or to a prospective employer is my ATP. The rest is so much paper, and nothing more.

Presently I'm drawing a salary from a company where I'm serving as a defacto Director of Maintenance, a default position that evolved from simply stepping in to help them out. I'm also flying with them; I can use the extra income, and I'm working to establish a new FAA operating certificate for them. Having a mechanic certificate is great for getting side work, or for finding work as a mechanic or inspector...or for finding a working job such as crop dusting or back country flying.

Not for airline positions. Airline pilots can't work on their aircraft; it's usually not possible due to company regulations, company proceedures, or union requirements. Airline pilots seldom have access to any tools, and whatever one might wish to bring through security today, will be confiscated.

When you speak of PFT programs, presumably you're referring to work-study programs in which one works for one's tuition and board.

In the industry, the term "PFT" refers to a very disrespected vile practice in which employers charge employees for a job. Also known as pay-to-play, it involves inexperienced pilots who are willing to pay thousands of dollars in order to secure a job (frequently a low paying entry level job). It's a highly detrimental and damaging practice to the industry, and a very sore topic...one you don't want to pursue or discuss.

If flying for an airline is the goal of your son, he needs to pursue a four year degree in order to be competative, period.

Don't think that maintenance jobs have dried up since 09/11. They have not. Airlines aren't hiring so many maintenance technicians, but aviation is comprised of much, much more than airlines. If your son wants work as a mechanic, it's there, gauranteed.