A new CFI training another CFI

[BoDEAN]

CFI teaching another CFI
Ok. A year after getting my CFI certificate, I have the opportunity now to teach someone else who is pursuing to be a CFI. He has already done his FOI and CFI Knowledge test.

Any suggestions on how I can lay out a game plan or organize our meetings together? We are meeting next week, and we are going to go over Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 of the FOI's to start things off.


Tips would be appreciated. Thanks
I know eventually he needs to know part 61 of the FAR's inside and out.

 

[wmudriver]

IMHO...

I went about mine by hammering a lesson plan for each subject in the CFI PTS... It covers everything from FOI, Systems and so forth. This way it gets forces them to atleast study and look over each subject they are responsible for on their checkride.

Once the student has reached the stage of his CFI training...hopefully they have undertook a bulk of the responsiblity to be a self starter, researcher and motivator on his own and you would be there to guide him in the right direction and help with teaching techniques.

Just looking at your profile...know the regs on what the requirements of a CFI doing the CFI sign off is (I don't know off hand). I thought it was 2 years as a CFI and 200 dual given.

Don't forget to send the GRR FSDO some cookies to sweeten them up when it comes checkride time.

Good luck

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Ditto on the two year thing. I know there used to be a 2 year 200 hour rule to recommend a CFI for the ride. Haven't looked at it in a long time though.

The best advise I could think of is to not use your lesson plans, make the student have a lesson plan for each meeting, after all he is the aspiring CFI. You should do NONE of the lesson plans for his/her training. Your job is to make sure they know how to do it, and that they do not miss anything.

 

[350DRIVER]

I thought it was 2 years as a CFI and 200 dual given.

Correct but you can still give the majority of the training just cannot give the sign off. May work may not


3 5 0

 

[jdog78]

I second all of the above...you'll have to find someone else to give the last 3 hours of instruction and the signoff.

-j

 

[labbats]

The required spin training has to be done by a 2 year or more CFI too.

 

[Ralgha]

The regs apply the 2 year/200 hour requirement to training given to an initial CFI applicant. They don't specify the final 3 hours or anything. I interpret them as meaning that any and all training toward the initial CFI must be done by someone who's been a CFI for 2 years and has at least 200 hours of dual given.

 

[jdog78]

last 3 hours refers to the 61.39 "60 day" endorsement which is required for a practical exam. I'm pretty sure he could give most of the training but can't give any signoffs. Check with the FSDO for the final word.

-j

 

[Mike man]

Western has done this crap in the past...its mostly because of lazy "Lead CFI's"...and have always gotten away with it.

Bo, tell Jim W. to do the training himself...Jim W is not your friend despite what he has told you or how you feel. John F. likes to have CFI students talk to him.

Blind leading the blind...WMU policy.

 

[bobbysamd]

Training CFI students

Training CFI students can actually be some of the best fun you can have as a flight instructor. My shtick always was to play the boneheaded student, e.g., the unprepared student, "What are we doing todaayy?" "I don't understand this," etc. It keeps things light and pleasant.

You absolutely want to drill your CFI students thoroughly on the FOI. The FOI is the essence of flight instructing. The Aviation Instructor's Handbook is our manual, our way of life, what we live and breathe. Its principles really do work. They should not be learned only to try to get past the CFI oral but should be internalized and adopted. Your CFI students should be lecturing you on the FOI and not the other way around.

Your students should create their own lesson plans from scratch using the FOI's format. They should present them to you, with you playing "dumb" student, using all training aids. They should use the blackboard (whiteboard), toy airplanes, diagrams, everything. Train them to use simple presentations, aiming their teaching at the fourth grade or less level. No kidding! They have to bear in mind that most students will come to them not knowing anything about airplanes. Even the more intelligent student will appreciate simple and concise explanations.

In the airplane, after your CFI students are comfortable flying out of the right seat, they should strive to never stop teaching. All the while, they should be teaching what they're doing. If they go silent at any time, get on them to start talking. Going silent during the practical will put them on the road towards a bust.

Finally, your CFI students should be completely familiar with the PTSs for their CFI certificate and the PTS(s) for the rating(s) they're seeking. They absolutely must be familiar with all FAA pubs referenced in the PTS. Although they, or you, might like Kershner or Peter Dogan better, the FAA manuals are always the final word on what to know, how to do it, what to say about about it and how to teach it.

As I read 14 CFR 61.195(h), one has to be a flight instructor two years (24 calendar months) and has given 200 hours of instruction to train first-time CFI students:

(h) Qualifications of the flight instructor for training first-time flight instructor applicants.

(1) The ground training provided to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must be given by an authorized instructor who --

(i) Holds a current ground or flight instructor certificate with the appropriate rating, has held that certificate for at least 24 months, and has given at least 40 hours of ground training; or

(ii) Holds a current ground or flight instructor certificate with the appropriate rating, and has given at least 100 hours of ground training in an FAA-approved course.

(2) Except for an instructor who meets the requirements of paragraph (h)(3)(ii) of this section, a flight instructor who provides training to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must --

(i) Meet the eligibility requirements prescribed in §61.183 of this part;

(ii) Hold the appropriate flight instructor certificate and rating;

(iii) Have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months;

(iv) For training in preparation for an airplane, rotorcraft, or powered-lift rating, have given at least 200 hours of flight training as a flight instructor . . . .

(emphasis added)

I trained CFI students at ERAU and FlightSafety, and all who trained them had held their CFIs at least two years and had given at least two hundred hours of dual.

Hope that helps. Good luck with your CFI students.

 

[Weasil]

The 3 hour rule doesn't apply to CFI applicants. They just have to have received training within the last 60 days and receive an endorsement testifying to that fact. That endorsement must also mention that you have covered the areas missed on the knowledge test.

As far as the 2 year rule, most schools I've ever worked at haven't had enough 2 year instructors so they've utilised junior instructors for the bulk of the training and used senior guys to verify the training is good and sign the applicant off for a checkride. This is a very common practice.

It seems to me that the regulation is very clear, but the argument I have heard is that the the junior instructor is able to give instruction, that instruction just can't be used as evidence to be eligible for a checkride.

As far as what to do with the guy, why not have him develop his own syllabus for his training. Have him start with the FAR's and devise a curriculum. Just a thought...

 

[Dutch]

CFI training CFI

The exceptions abound. If operating under 141, the CFI doing the training could have less than 24 months of experience provided that the training is being conducted under part 141/142, the instructor has an 80% initial pass rate (minimum of 5 applicants) and 400 hours dual given.



14CFR61.195(h)(3)


(3) A flight instructor who serves as a flight instructor in an FAA-approved course for the issuance of a flight instructor rating must hold a current flight instructor certificate with the appropriate rating and pass the required initial and recurrent flight instructor proficiency tests, in accordance with the requirements of the part under which the FAA-approved course is conducted, and must --

(i) Meet the requirements of paragraph (h)(2) of this section; or

(ii) Have trained and endorsed at least five applicants for a practical test for a pilot certificate, flight instructor certificate, ground instructor certificate, or an additional rating, and at least 80 percent of those applicants passed that test on their first attempt; and

(A) Given at least 400 hours of flight training as a flight instructor for training in an airplane, a rotorcraft, or for a powered-lift rating; or

(B) Given at least 100 hours of flight training as a flight instructor, for training in a glider rating.




I met that requirment with less than 2 years as a CFI. Regardless, I didn't feel I had enough under my belt to teach other CFI's.

There is one part of the reg that confuses me though. It says you must have "...trained and endorsed at least five applicants for a practical test for a pilot certificate, flight instructor certificate, ground instructor certificate..." If you've already been able to endorse for the flight instructor practical wouldn't you meet the requirements of (h)(2) and not need to meet the requirments of (h)(3)(ii)? Seems redundant.

Dutch

Edit: I'll second the lesson plan idea. For my initial CFI, the first 6 activities were orals. Had to show up the first day with 28 lesson plans geared towards private pilot training.

 

[Weasil]

There is one part of the reg that confuses me though. It says you must have "...trained and endorsed at least five applicants for a practical test for a pilot certificate, flight instructor certificate, ground instructor certificate..." If you've already been able to endorse for the flight instructor practical wouldn't you meet the requirements of (h)(2) and not need to meet the requirments of (h)(3)(ii)? Seems redundant.

61.195 is the requirements to train Initial Flight Instructor Applicants. Any CFI can sign off somebody for an additional flight instructor rating

As to the other stuff Dutch... that refers to 141 training. The question was about 61 training I imagine because he is talking about one on one with a friend.

 

[mizzouguy]

There is no 3 hours in 60 days for CFI only Private, Instrument, and Commercial. The 2 year 200 hours applies for all of the training

 

[jdog78]

sorry dude...check the regs...61.39 applies to most practical test applicants, including CFI. This is the most often ignored of endorsements and the FAA is cracking down, at least here in Orlando.

As for this guy providing training to his friend...I think it would be a good learning experience. You definitely can't sign him off...and I would probably not log it as dual given. There's nothing in the regs stopping him from giving advice or instruction to his friend...if anything, it will give him a head start when he goes to someone he'll be paying...hell, that guy might just sign him off on the spot! Gray areas can be tricky so just cover all your bases...

-j

 

[Weasil]

jdog, you've almost got it right. 61.39 does apply but you don't have to have had 3 hours of instruction for the CFI. You just have to have received instruction within the last 60 days... read it again.

 

[jdog78]

A good instructor always admits when he's wrong...and i was wrong. Now I'm wondering where the hell I got the 3 hour thing...d@mn FARs...

-j

 

[Weasil]

Jdog, you weren't wrong, you didn't mention the 3 hours - Mizzouguy did - I was just clarifying what you wrote. You are definitely correct, FSDOs want to see that endorsement. I saw a student once fail a CFI ride because he had the 60 day endorsement but told the Examiner that he didn't really need it!

Oh well...

 

[mizzouguy]

I've never put the 3 hours in 60 days endorsment and it is not needed look it up in part 61 or the PTS or ask a FSDO guy who knows what hes doing. Never had one fail because of that either

 

[FADECtoBLACK]

Bo, tell Jim W. to do the training himself...Jim W is not your friend despite what he has told you or how you feel. John F. likes to have CFI students talk to him.

HA!

Mike,

I don't think this is WMU we're talking about...

Amazing how small this community really is!