A little help regarding employment contracts

[Captzaahlie]

I asking if anyone has any experience breaking an employment contract.
Do you know of people doing it?
Has the company come after them?
If you put in half the req. time are they likely to let you bail?
I'm asking to help out a friend of a friend who recently upgraded someplace but apparently committed to giving 12 months of service for the upgrade. This person has greener pastures ahead of them (anticipated job offer at a regional) but is concerned about his so called obligation.
Thanks in advance for any insight that I can pass along!

 

[CX880]

People do it all the time most escape some don't. It depends on the employee, if it's a big place like a major regional then most likely they will not go after you. If it's a place with a couple of hundred pilots then they most likely will.

 

[Flybet3]

People do it all the time most escape some don't. It depends on the employee, if it's a big place like a major regional then most likely they will not go after you. If it's a place with a couple of hundred pilots then they most likely will.

I've got three friends that had that issue. 2 worked for avantair, 1 for CHQ. Both places came after them initially, CHQ pretty much stopped trying after a few months. The other two are still getting BS letters saying that they have to pay the money for their initial training, plus I think 10 or 12% interest and the collection fees. Pretty retarded if you ask me.
It comes down to this my friend, they can even take you to court, but if you dont have the money to pay...well, they might as well stop. If you dont have the money to pay back for the training, then what makes them think you're gonna have more money for interest and lawyer fees.
Also, it's not like you BORROWED money from them, they trained you in accordance to FAA requirements and regulations, and tough sh** if you leave prior to the year. It's part of the business. Look at it this way, you go to a regional to make 20K the first year, and they want you to pay them back 15 or 18K??? Hmmm, not very logical to me.
And last, they will try to intimidate your friend with letters and what not to try to get him to settle for something. But if he stays strong, and as a matter of fact has support from others in his same situation, then they for sure wont get sh***

 

[tyuwerty]

So your friend enters into an agreement with his company to make the left seat. The left seat makes him more employable elsewhere.

Now, he wants to break the contract he freely agreed to before his training.

He should just finish the time and leave with his word intact.

 

[dooork]

I can see it both ways. Ultimatly...if you sign a contract I think you should complete it or pay up. I also don't think they should make you sign a contract....so everyone should not sign and eventually they will do away with them.

 

[Flybet3]

I can see it both ways. Ultimatly...if you sign a contract I think you should complete it or pay up. I also don't think they should make you sign a contract....so everyone should not sign and eventually they will do away with them.

Like I said, having people sign training contracts is pretty much like having you pay for your training. Pretty much the same.

 

[greyskyracer]

I had a good friend at air midwest. He left after about 8 months. They sued him for a pro rated portion of the training agreement. He lost.

 

[rickair7777]

So your friend enters into an agreement with his company to make the left seat. The left seat makes him more employable elsewhere.

Now, he wants to break the contract he freely agreed to before his training.

He should just finish the time and leave with his word intact.

On general principles I agree with you, on pilot training contracts specifically, I disagree.

- These contracts are essentially coerced.

- The company did not spend any money that they weren't going to spend in the first place.

- The training is NOT valid anywhere else...if you get hired at another airline, you will have to redo all training, even if you fly the same airplane.

These contracts are basically coerced indentured servitude.

A training contract is reasonable if the company buys you a college degree or a type rating in a citation (or another GA plane), and you ran off and used that training to get a better job WHICH REQUIRES THAT TYPE RATING. They provided a marketable certification and you owe them for that...because they could have hired someone off the street who was already types. Airlines can't do that.

Airline training almost never has direct market value since you have to redo all training from scratch at a new company (737 type is a possible exception).

When you leave an airline for a better airline it's not because of a type rating, it's because of your experience. Airlines don't get to charge us for acquiring experience folks (except the ass clowns at GIA )

 

[Flybet3]

I had a good friend at air midwest. He left after about 8 months. They sued him for a pro rated portion of the training agreement. He lost.

Sounds like he caved in. Well, I guess it also depends how much money they're fighting for. Like I said, yeah, they can sue you. But if you dont have the money or means to pay for it, then they're pretty much f****ed.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Unfortunately I'm having this same problem...at a very small company..They want their money, have sicked they're lawyer on me. And now i have 20 days to respond...

bottom line is that once they have lawyers involved and the courts involved then you MUST respond..I am hiring a lawyer and will have him deal with them. Hopefully it can be dragged out for years. I wouldn't just pay them because that is caving.

If you don't respond once a summons is delivered (getting served) they can go to the courts and garnish your wages.. (i'm not sure how much they can take per paycheck). Flybet's advice isn't really sound advice once the courts are involved. True if you don't have the money then you can't pay, but if you're working then they can garnish wages.

Unfortunately I now make way too much to say I can't make any payments. But I can still argue my points, or try to make a negotiation to better help reduce total owed.

 

[Flybet3]

Unfortunately I'm having this same problem...at a very small company..They want their money, have sicked they're lawyer on me. And now i have 20 days to respond...

bottom line is that once they have lawyers involved and the courts involved then you MUST respond..I am hiring a lawyer and will have him deal with them. Hopefully it can be dragged out for years. I wouldn't just pay them because that is caving.

If you don't respond once a summons is delivered (getting served) they can go to the courts and garnish your wages.. (i'm not sure how much they can take per paycheck). Flybet's advice isn't really sound advice once the courts are involved. True if you don't have the money then you can't pay, but if you're working then they can garnish wages.

Unfortunately I now make way too much to say I can't make any payments. But I can still argue my points, or try to make a negotiation to better help reduce total owed.

Well the thing is they can garnish wages as long as they dont affect your needs. For example, if taking your money is going to leave you and your family out on the street then they can't garnish sh**.

 

[Guitar Guy]

For all of the interesting banter on this thread, read this summary of a case involving a pilot and Great Lakes' training contract: http://wyomcases.courts.state.wy.us/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=448863

(And no, I was not connected to the case in any manner.)

 

[Flybet3]

For all of the interesting banter on this thread, read this summary of a case involving a pilot and Great Lakes' training contract: http://wyomcases.courts.state.wy.us/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=448863

(And no, I was not connected to the case in any manner.)

I read that before. The only issue with all of this is that every state is different with these situations.

 

[phr8dawg]

Does your word really have a dollar value attached to it?

 

[GogglesPisano]

How are you "coerced" into signing a contract?

 

[DrewBlows]

Does a "training contract" guarantee you get paid if you are furloughed? If the answer is no, tell the company to "go fudge themselves." For that matter tell them to "go fudge themselves" no matter what.

 

[crxpilot]

Tell your friend to dont sign for any certified letters and if the sheriff comes knocking on the door to serve papers, dont answer the door. They eventually go away, and so does your problem!

 

[Guitar Guy]

I read that before. The only issue with all of this is that every state is different with these situations.

I'd be interested to hear a good attorney's opinion on some of the issues raised in the Lakes' case. For instance, the issue raised with regards to whether or not the new-hire was coerced to sign the contract. In the case cited, the court said that the new-hire wasn't coerced because he was free to leave Lakes and seek employment elsewhere. Some posters here at FI claim that these training contracts are void because they were signed under "duress" and that doesn't seem to be the opinion the case summary I linked to.

 

[tyuwerty]

If a company tells a new hire about the contract AFTER the pilot has started employment, that could be coercion.

If the company explains that there is a contract BEFORE employment starts, then no coercion. There is free choice involved and the pilot can easily go elsewhere or decline the job.

Likewise, if a company says you have to sign this contract and upgrade or we will fire you, then that is coercion.

Conversely, if they say that upgrade is available but we need a 1 year contract. If you don’t sign, no problem, you just don’t upgrade. That is not coercion.

You are fighting payment on an agreement that YOU WILLING BROKE, that gives them the high ground. If people really detest training contracts so much, the solution is simple, STOP SIGNING them. Eventually, companies will change their ways, just like they changed from pay for training in the 90's.

The argument about furlough protection doesn’t wash either, the majority of contracts out there drop dead in the event of furlough.

The fact of the matter is... If you signed the contract, you wanted the position/job/upgrade bad. Now that you have more experience provided by that position you want to jump to something better and you don't want to wait.

 

[CitationUltra]

On general principles I agree with you, on pilot training contracts specifically, I disagree.

- These contracts are essentially coerced.

- The company did not spend any money that they weren't going to spend in the first place.

- The training is NOT valid anywhere else...if you get hired at another airline, you will have to redo all training, even if you fly the same airplane.

These contracts are basically coerced indentured servitude.

A training contract is reasonable if the company buys you a college degree or a type rating in a citation (or another GA plane), and you ran off and used that training to get a better job WHICH REQUIRES THAT TYPE RATING. They provided a marketable certification and you owe them for that...because they could have hired someone off the street who was already types. Airlines can't do that.

Airline training almost never has direct market value since you have to redo all training from scratch at a new company (737 type is a possible exception).

When you leave an airline for a better airline it's not because of a type rating, it's because of your experience. Airlines don't get to charge us for acquiring experience folks (except the ass clowns at GIA )

That's not how the court will look at it. All those putative mitigating factors you mentioned have no bearing on the core issue: There is a contract. There was consideration. It was memorialized in writing. It was executed by the parties. The agreement was entered into by a persons who are presumed to be mentally competent. The court looks to the contract, not your justifications for abrogating it.