A "Crisis" in Flight Training???

[mitsdriver]

And its also a hypothetical threat that cant even exist without some kind of foreign work visa program. And I do not see any kind of foreign airline pilot visa program ever happening here, because there is not a true shortage at all, and not even a shortage right now even for the low paying regionals. There is still a surplus of labor, and there will be for the forseable future

But foreigners often do not have to build time in their own countries. Many of them go straight to major airlines in their own countries. There was such a shortage in India a couple of years ago, it almost shut down their flight training, when airlines were snatching up any all all CFIs and putting them right into Boeing and Airbus aircraft.

For major airlines here to start using foreign labor, it would require a work visa program and that would just not be politically feasable or practical. Besides, these same time building programs also exist overseas in some places too, and there are Americans that go over there and buy time in. This is just some hypothetical boogieman scenary that has not materialized, and nor is there any kind of demand for foreign aircrew visas.

Rather than focusing towards foreign pilots as a potential (and nonexistent) problem, we should be looking at the actual problems that exist now in our industry. Its our own pilots here who will do anything and work for any wage, in the pursuit of "experience", are a real threat, and not something hypothetical of pilots from foreign s************************* who still actually have real shortages in their countries.

EDIT - wow, the word s-h-o-r-e-s is somehow censored. Hope I dont get banned for actually spelling out that word.

It's not a hypothetical situation. Here is one example.

www.kau.kr/ftc/

This is a site for Korean Aerospace University's Flight Training Center. Most of the content is written in Korean. But under the description of their Airline Pilot Program, this is what it says. (Yes, I can read Korean.)

Phase 1: 3 months at a KAU campus. Learning basic aeronautical knowledge and aviation English.

Phase 2: 10 months at a US location. Earning commercial/instrument/multi and CFI.

Phase 3: 15 months of internship at a US flight school as a CFI. Followed by another 15 months of first officer internship at a US airline flying 20 seat turboprops. (BE-1900?? GIA?? Great Lakes?? it doesn't say. But what other "20 seat turboprop" are currently active at US airlines? And who else flys them?)

Phase 4: 7 months at a KAU campus in Jeju Island. Jet transition/CRM course using CE-560.

At the completion of the program, the candidate may become a first officer with Korean Air.

This is an active program. So whatever political/immigration/work visa issues there may have been, it's been taken care of.

Right now this program has a fairly small enrollment numbers as I understand. But as aviation expands in places like China and Korea and more institutions like this pops up to meet demands, wouldn't you say we'll see more and more of these internship-related programs not only in turboprop segment but also in RJ segment here in the US? And wouldn't you say that US regionals will be all too happy to use them in their pursuit of low-cost labor? The number might not be all that many in the grand scale, but it will be enough to keep the wages down at the regional level. Again I won't blame these foreign folks. I'll blame the US regionals for taking advantage of such situation. I"LL SAY IT AGAIN, FOREIGN TIMEBUILDERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. THE US REGIONALS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEM ARE.

The US is still the best place to build time for any aspiring foreign pilots in terms of cost, choices, and English-learning. Has been for many years.

 

[nosehair]

Phase 3: 15 months of internship at a US flight school as a CFI. Followed by another 15 months of first officer internship at a US airline flying 20 seat turboprops. (BE-1900?? GIA?? Great Lakes?? it doesn't say.

Now that is news to me. I know for many years there have been programs to get trained to CFI, then spend the remainder of a 2-year visa program being a CFI, but have not ever known of a program to do FO time. Do you actually know of any airline that has legally hired any in this program?

 

[mitsdriver]

Now that is news to me. I know for many years there have been programs to get trained to CFI, then spend the remainder of a 2-year visa program being a CFI, but have not ever known of a program to do FO time. Do you actually know of any airline that has legally hired any in this program?

What I posted is straight out of KAU's website. KAU is a major university in South Korea and has the same AABI accreditation as the likes of ERAU, UND, etc. So I seriously doubt that this is some sort of an illegal scam.

The FO internship program description doesn't mention any specific airline or aircraft type other than that it's a "US airline" (which could mean anyone with a 121 or 135 ops certificate) and that it's a "20-seat turboprop". Based on that, one can deduce that it's probably with a US regional flying BE-1900 (about the only active aircraft in US regional fleet that fits the said description). So it could mean GIA or Great Lakes. I'm not sure if there are others that flies BE-1900's

Theoretically, it could also mean freight outfits like Ameriflight (BE-1900 and SA-227) and Alpine Air (BE-1900). Or Penair in Alaska (SA-227). But somehow I doubt it.

 

[mesaserf]

You know what gets me is the fact that our tax dollars go to support an artificially cheap GA system. That is then used by foreign pilots for flight training and then get go home to fly aircraft that I will never have a chance to fly. I remember my flight school back in the day sending Air China cadets home with around 500 hours to fly a 747-400.

Or even worse, they then stay and take a job here that could have gone to an American citizen. Man am I getting tired of hearing heavy foreign accents with a call sign of an American flag carrier on the radio.

G' Day mate!

P.S. No disrepect to the boys and girls from down under. I'm just showing some frustration with the current state of our industry.

 

[mitsdriver]

You know what gets me is the fact that our tax dollars go to support an artificially cheap GA system. That is then used by foreign pilots for flight training and then get go home to fly aircraft that I will never have a chance to fly. I remember my flight school back in the day sending Air China cadets home with around 500 hours to fly a 747-400.

Or even worse, they then stay and take a job here that could have gone to an American citizen. Man am I getting tired of hearing heavy foreign accents with a call sign of an American flag carrier on the radio.

G' Day mate!

P.S. No disrepect to the boys and girls from down under. I'm just showing some frustration with the current state of our industry.

I don't think any of those foreign cadets are interested in sticking around here in the US for a long term flying job. Why would they want to put up with crappy paycheck and other BS here when they can get a job in their homeland that treats them as real professionals and pays them real wage?

 

[nosehair]

The FO internship program description doesn't mention any specific airline or aircraft type other than that it's a "US airline" (which could mean anyone with a 121 or 135 ops certificate) and that it's a "20-seat turboprop". Based on that, one can deduce that it's probably with a US regional flying BE-1900 (about the only active aircraft in US regional fleet that fits the said description). So it could mean GIA or Great Lakes. I'm not sure if there are others that flies BE-1900's

Ahh,..ok, ..no worries. That's the same as some of our flight schools used to promise. "A guaranteed airline interview" - or some such nonsense.

 

[mesaserf]

I don't think any of those foreign cadets are interested in sticking around here in the US for a long term flying job. Why would they want to put up with crappy paycheck and other BS here when they can get a job in their homeland that treats them as real professionals and pays them real wage?

True that.

The point I was trying to make is that relatively speaking it is absurdly cheap to learn how to fly here in the states as compared to Continental Europe. The foreign students come here to "sponge" off of what our tax dollars provide with little return on our investment. The flight school for JAL in Bakersfield CA. comes to mind as an example.

 

[mitsdriver]

True that.

The point I was trying to make is that relatively speaking it is absurdly cheap to learn how to fly here in the states as compared to Continental Europe. The foreign students come here to "sponge" off of what our tax dollars provide with little return on our investment. The flight school for JAL in Bakersfield CA. comes to mind as an example.

Well, I don't know if I'll call it "sponging off". After all, they do bring business to our flight schools and training providers. In fact, many schools depend heavily on business from international students.

Sadly, TSA's Alien Student Program has only served to drive a lot of business away from many of our flight schools and sim centers without improving security...

 

[mitsdriver]

Ahh,..ok, ..no worries. That's the same as some of our flight schools used to promise. "A guaranteed airline interview" - or some such nonsense.

Well, I think it's safe to say that this internship is happening. We just don't know as to with which airline.

Keep in mind that the ultimate goal of this program is to become an FO with Korean Air, not landing an internship at a US regional. The said internship is just a part of program's curriculum meant to build flight time.

 

[414Flyer]

These right seat pay for time building schemes have been around for decades, and are not some nefarious first stepin replacing all our airline pilots with foreigners. Probably the biggest utilizer of these PFT programs anyways have been our own pilots, especially quite a few here on this board. That paying to shortcut mentality by AMERICAN pilots, often encouraged/paid for for their major airline pilot parents, is a far far far and existent, threat to pilot careers than some PFT program where people are probably getting sketchy right seat time in a B1900.

GIA has been around for a while, and their program is certainly not program to sneak in foreigners.

You know what gets me is the fact that our tax dollars go to support an artificially cheap GA system. That is then used by foreign pilots for flight training and then get go home to fly aircraft that I will never have a chance to fly. I remember my flight school back in the day sending Air China cadets home with around 500 hours to fly a 747-400.

Or even worse, they then stay and take a job here that could have gone to an American citizen. Man am I getting tired of hearing heavy foreign accents with a call sign of an American flag carrier on the radio.

Are you saying our flight schools are subsidized with the government picking up most of the costs? Would we be better off closing those flight schools down, or not allowing foreign students? I think if you hear any foreign accents on an airline here, they are legally there, probably have a American spouse.

Do you get equally upset when you hear American accents flying on foreign airliners? Because I assure you there are a lot more Americans flying in foreign airliner cockpits, than there are foreign pilots flying here.

If you all want to look at those looking to lower the bar so to speak of pay and QOL here, sure its convienient to want to blame hypothetical jobs lost to the auslanders, but why not look first at our own pilots who PFT, or work for free, or for burger flipper wages to help their management procure other contracts, who willing eat a shiit sandwich all in order to work as a pilot, or those major airline pilots who had too much hubris to fly a CRJ. Those are real and present threats to the quality of an airline pilots career. Some right seat program for korean pilots to log time, that may not even count here and that may not even be required crewmember, is probably not some camels nose under the tent.

We have to focus on real reasons why aviation careers have turned into such horrible jobs. Koreans coming over to sit right seat in a Beech, arent the cause of it, and are not the prelude to some massive foreign airline pilot hiring program.