91/135 duty regs

[trfenwyd]

ok, can anyone help?

I just flew today (3.5 flight hrs 11.5 duty) got back and my boss asked me if I wanted to fly down to tampa, fl (an addition 3.5 hrs flight) I'm single pilot so I told him no, that I couldn't cause I'd run out of duty.

He said not only could I make the flight, because I didn't go over 8 hours, but that I could RETURN (another 3.5 flight time) because it's part 91. Giving me total of 10.5 hrs of flight and right around 20 hours of duty. This didn't seem right but I didn't press the issue, told him I was tired and went home. My question is this,

So if I'm dropping someone off, does my duty day end when they get off the airplane? Does repositioning an a/c for a company constitute duty time?

Thanks

 

[xjcaptain]

I may have missed it, but was the trip all 91, or a mix of 91 and 135 or all 135? If you're 91 you can fly 24/7 (legally). No flight restrictions at all. So the boss was right if you were going 91. The only place in 91 that talks about that if I remember right is for CFI's who are limited to 8 flight hours per day with no mention of duty. (remember this is legal, but you need to evaluate your fitness to fly based on how you feel)

 

[7B2]

No you can't regardless if the flight back is 91 or 135.

135.267B1

Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed --

(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot;

it then goes on to tell you some exceptions which don't apply in your case.

So you're right; eventhough convincing "the boss" is a whole different game

 

[aeronautic1]

Whaaat???

Was the boss's tired ass going to be in the airplane with you? Or did he just want you to fly around the circuit to see how dogged he could make you? Sounds like the trip might have been 134 decimile 5. You did the right thing. Remember, it's your ticket, not his.

 

[trfenwyd]

exactly

the trip I was on was a mix of 135/91. However, in my mind (and I might be wrong) it doesn't matter if you're haulin stuff or not, they're paying me even for the dead legs so that constitutes duty time since it is commercial in nature.

Sounded shady, thanks for the replies.

 

[100-1/2]

Yes, If.... No, because...

You may go part 91 at the end of the day, provided:

- you are not being compensated for that flying time in excess of eight hours for only, hourly waged employees.

- normal duty and flight time terminate within a 14 hour duty period.


Your case sounds like this situation and you could probably have as your boss said if he was not paying you for return flight time. If it were up to me, Yeah, I'll do the out leg if boss gets me a hotel, car and per diem. Not likely going to happen with an hourly employee.

Rule of thumb:

91 time followed by 135 all counts, period.

91 time after 135 all counts, for salary, daily and some hourly positions.

Still have 14 hour duty limit and 10 hour rest.

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS,

I
M
S
A
F
E


Sounds like you made a good call in any event!

100-1/2

 

[Nolife]

My 2 cents...

As far as duty goes a Part 91 reposition doesn't count towards your duty day if done after the 135 leg, but it can't count towards your rest. Even if they airlined you or you JS'ed; transpotation not local in nature for the company doesn't constitute rest.

As far as commercial flying in 8 hours I've heard several different opinions. In my case we are salaried and my view is that any flying done in a company A/C without my wife, surf board, and luggage is commercial flying. Others disagree.

At my first company I got the best general advice ever. Consider your flight and the rules as if you will have to defend your actions in front of an NTSB staff judge.

IMO... good call; besides, sounds like you had a long day and needed the rest.

 

[100LL... Again!]

7B2-

The use of that FAR is not correct regarding reposition flights. They are not REVENUE flights, therefore they may be conducted under part 91.

It is legal, though not necessarily safe, to exceed both the 8 hours of flight time AND the 14 hours of duty (non-sked ops) if the flight in excess of 8 and duty in excess of 14 consists of NO revenue operations.

I would like to see this loophole closed for the sake of better pilot lifestyle, but it is how it is for now.

 

[CaSyndrm]

Any 91 flying after a 135 flight is legal. No matter how long you stay on the clock. Notice I didn't say duty. It just isn't part of a required rest period. I have had many arguments trying to clarify all this and don't fully understand it all but what I said at the beginning is true according to most feds and company experts.

Also, I have done 12 hour 135 trips and then followed them up with 91 repos and never had a fed question it.

 

[7B2]

I find this a very interesting post, but I just can't see the 91 flying after 135 flying to not count towards flight time.

135.267

.....the total flighttime of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember.....

I'm assuming this crewmember is doing the 91 flying for the same company, therefor it is safe to assume he/she is compensated.

To me the key is "when added to ANY other commercial flying"
This includes a 91 flight (=flight instructing, mx, reposition, etc)

I aggree that any 91 flying after 135 is legal, but it gets slippery because you may only exceed it in in case of "circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder..."
He/she is assigned as a flightcrew member under 135 and therefore must adhere to the time and duty under 135.267

 

[100LL... Again!]

7B2-

I understand your point, but remember, once the flight is dispatches with no revenue pax or cargo on board, you no longer fall under the scope of the 135 reg. You COULD go under 135, but there is no need to.

You are no longer flying in common carriage. You are the company's 'corporate pilot', so to speak, and fall under part 91.

It cannot be considered rest time, however, because the company is requiring you to do it.

This was the way we did it at both of my airlines.

(although contract language is often written to severely restrict the use of this option).

 

[Deftone45075]

There is Duty, Rest, and then there is time that counts as neither.

If you are performing a function in relation to your assigned duty position (i.e. your a second in command and obtaining a weather briefing for a flight) it is DUTY time.

If you are performing a function not related to your duty assignment but is required by your company (i.e. pilot meeting, training) then you are NOT on duty, however, you are also NOT on Rest since:

Rest is a period of time free from ALL duties required by the company.

A part 91 leg is Not Duty time. Duty time only applies when operating under 135, however it can cause problems. If you are flying a 91 leg before a 135 trip, and the 135 portion will require 14 hours of your time, then you cannot fly the 91 leg. Always look at duty/rest time from the completion of the assignment.

When you complete the 14 hours of 135 duty and count back 24, you wouldn't have 10 hours of rest if you flew the 91 leg.

Conversely, if you were on duty under 135 for 14 hours you can duty off and continue flying 91 for as long as you like, as long as the time spent operating 91 does not count toward your rest. You will still need 10 hours rest after completing the 91 flying before you can duty back on under 135.

The 10 hours Flight time limitation applies to ANY commercial flying.

If you are compensated for flying your Boss then it does get totaled in, weather it is 91 or not doesn't factor. If he invited you to fly his personal airplane on your day off, that would not count toward the 10 hours (or 8 for single pilot) Flight TIme limitation.

 

[7B2]

Deftone45075,

Very well said,
case closed as far as I'm concerned.