8 hour flight day,.. part 121

[bailout]

OK, since the 8 hour thread just appeared, I have a question. This has been haggled quite a bit, and we even had a heated debate in recurrent a few weeks back. The class was almost evenly split. We are talking about FARs, not contratual, and flight time, not duty time.
If you are on a trip and have logged 7.0 hours of flight time but have a round trip of 2.0 hours left, are you legal to fly it?

Also, same scenario, but with one leg left.

The trip was 'scheduled' at 7.5 hours total, but due to weather, mechanicals, etc you are now in the above situation.

Half the class said - legal to start, legal to finish-.

The other half, said NO Way, you cannot knowingly go over the 8.0 hours.
(meaning if you are inbound and have to hold, etc, you obviously have no chioce but to go over, but you cant start the trip knowing you will go over 8.0)

What do you guys say?

 

[180ToTheMarker]

IMHO- legal to start, legal to finish as long as its weather or mechanical. The company cannot reschedule over 8.

 

[chperplt]

It's actually quite simple.. Not sure why people get so confused on it..

If you are flying your original schedule, you can fly any number of hours... as the term legal to start, legal to finish. If your original schedule is changed, you are now leg to leg and cannot exceed 8 hours unless when you depart on your last leg, you expect to complete the trip in under 8 hours.

In other words...

You're leg to leg because of a schedule change and you've flown 7 hour during your duty period. You are scheduled to fly one more leg blocked at 59 minutes. That leg actually takes you 1 hour 1 minute. You are not in violation of any regulation. If you are leg to leg and the last leg is blocked at 1 hour and 1 minute, you would not be legal to start that trip.

Clear as mud...eh??

 

[xanderman]

get me thinking!!!

OK, since the 8 hour thread just appeared, I have a question. This has been haggled quite a bit, and we even had a heated debate in recurrent a few weeks back. The class was almost evenly split. We are talking about FARs, not contratual, and flight time, not duty time.
If you are on a trip and have logged 7.0 hours of flight time but have a round trip of 2.0 hours left, are you legal to fly it?

Also, same scenario, but with one leg left.

The trip was 'scheduled' at 7.5 hours total, but due to weather, mechanicals, etc you are now in the above situation.

Half the class said - legal to start, legal to finish-.

The other half, said NO Way, you cannot knowingly go over the 8.0 hours.
(meaning if you are inbound and have to hold, etc, you obviously have no chioce but to go over, but you cant start the trip knowing you will go over 8.0)

What do you guys say?

It's been some time since I have been flying 121 ops but since i'm getting back into it... I believe 121.471 paragraph "g" might answer your question.

it states: A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations,

but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions),

[The flights]are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.

Wow I think I could easily confuse myself now but hopefully that will provide some insight... Sorry if I am missin' the boat here...

Andy

 

[great cornholio]

Legal to start legal to finish. Just like Chpr said. As long as dispatch didn't change the original pairing then you can fly as many hours as needed to finish it. IE it was blocked at 7:50 but you have been flying anywhere in the Northeast in the past 2 weeks and have been holding and dodgeing storms and now you are at 8:20 of flight time and still have 2 more legs left of the pairing you can still fly those last 2 legs as long as you don't exceed 16 hours of duty. So you could end up with 10 or 11 hours of flight time for a day and be totally legal. Gotta love the summer.

If you had 7:00 hrs of flight time for the day already and you were at PIT and were supposed to go to GRR and that was blocked at 1:01 then you are still legal even though you will end up with 8:01 cause it is your original pairing. However if you were sitting in PIT and dispatch called and changed your destination to say DTW and it is still blocked at 1:01 you can NOT take the leg cause it will be illegal because now you have a new pairnig and that will exceed 8:00 hrs so legal to start legal to finish is not applicable here. And you can't take the leg so you just won an overnight in PIT.

So I guess cliff notes would be as long as no legs get changed then its legal start legal finish. If a leg gets changed and the block time of the new leg will take you over 8hrs then its illegal.

 

[igneousy2]

Legal to start legal to finish. Just like Chpr said. As long as dispatch didn't change the original pairing then you can fly as many hours as needed to finish it. IE it was blocked at 7:50 but you have been flying anywhere in the Northeast in the past 2 weeks and have been holding and dodgeing storms and now you are at 8:20 of flight time and still have 2 more legs left of the pairing you can still fly those last 2 legs as long as you don't exceed 16 hours of duty. So you could end up with 10 or 11 hours of flight time for a day and be totally legal. Gotta love the summer.

If you had 7:00 hrs of flight time for the day already and you were at PIT and were supposed to go to GRR and that was blocked at 1:01 then you are still legal even though you will end up with 8:01 cause it is your original pairing. However if you were sitting in PIT and dispatch called and changed your destination to say DTW and it is still blocked at 1:01 you can NOT take the leg cause it will be illegal because now you have a new pairnig and that will exceed 8:00 hrs so legal to start legal to finish is not applicable here. And you can't take the leg so you just won an overnight in PIT.

So I guess cliff notes would be as long as no legs get changed then its legal start legal finish. If a leg gets changed and the block time of the new leg will take you over 8hrs then its illegal.

Yes, Legal to start Legal to finish still applies to FLIGHT time limitations, however, Legal to start Legal to finish no longer applies to DUTY time. This has changed since the Witlow interpretation was issued a few years ago. The dispute I have with the duty time limits is how far you carry the "Legal to start Legal to finish." I believe the intent was to allow a carrier to get their airplane back to somewhere where the crew could be swapped out. You are starting a 4 day trip of 20 hours with 5 hours of flying per day. You have flown 80 hours already this month so you will just squeak in on the 100/month rule. On the first day, because of wx, etc. you actually fly 7 hours. Now when you pull up your schedule, it shows that they are expecting you to complete the sequence with 22 hours of flight time. Can you start your second day? How about when you get to your last day, it's been a crap trip and you already have hit 20 hours in the first 3 days of the trip, any flying you do on day 4 will cause you to go over, are you still legal to start? What if you are in Domicile at that point, does it matter?


Now, If you changed your question to read "You're sitting at the end of the runway and it's two hours to your destination and you've been on duty 15 hours you were originally scheduled for 8..." may you take-off?...the answer would be NO regardless of what caused you to be that late in the first place.

Later

 

[elguapo9]

I find it easier to think of 'legal to start, legal to finish' in regard to the leg, and not the day. So, in the original example, with 7 hours flown and 2 hours remaining, they are not 'legal to start, legal to finish', since they would be knowingly busting 8 hrs. If it was a 1 hour trip, then they could go for it.

 

[Lear70]

The scenarios you're all talking about happen every day here at Pinnacle. Our days are regularly blocked at 7+59 and even 8+00 of flight, and go to 14 hours of duty. Add thunderstorms, in-flight holding, gate holding, ground stops, etc., or even in the winter in DTW you can sit for an hour waiting to de-ice on each outbound leg of a 5-leg day, and you can be assured that you will go over 8 hours just about every day of the week if the weather isn't CAVU.

Our company has some irrational views about rest and paragraph (g) which allows the "Legal to start, legal to finish" concept. It clearly states that it's about FLIGHT TIME that was originally legal, not rest periods, but that's a whole different ball of wax. What follows is the definition that I personally have verified with our FAA POI, the Southeastern Region FAA Headquarters, and the Air Carrier Division of the FAA in Washington, D.C. (Oklahoma City doesn't govern the Air Carriers). If you like, I can provide names and phone numers for the people involved (I'm running a little crusade here against reduced rest abuse and the FAA is on my side instead of the company's - imagine that).

The person who mentioned Whitlow in this thread is correct; there is NO circumstance in which you may leave the gate or, with ground delays, leave the ground knowing that you will go over 16 hours of duty. The "Legal to Start, Legal to Finish" concept does not apply to duty time.

Back to flight time: as long as a series of flights was ORIGINALLY SCHEDULED for less than 8 hours between rest periods, you can fly 10, 11, or 12+ hours because of weather or mechanical delays (beyond the control of the carrier) and be absolutely, 100%, perfectly legal.

30 in 7 and 100 in a month concepts are the same way. The FAA considers you "Legal to Start, Legal to Finish", on a day-by-day basis, meaning that as long as you start the last day SCHEDULED to be within these FLIGHT TIME LIMITATIONS, you are legal to finish THE DAY. Even if on day two of a four-day trip it becomes clear that you're SCHEDULED to go over on day 4, you're allowed to continue right up to the beginning of day 4, in case you make up some time somewhere.

This happens every day here - you block over by 15 minutes somewhere on day 2 when the 4 day trip was projected at 29:52... you fly the trip up to the last day then call up and find out what leg they're going to drop to make you legal.
If you're really smart, you wait until the very last out-and-back (turn) in hopes that they won't catch it, then call them up and say, "I'm sorry, I just realized I'm not legal for this last turn. Have a great weekend, buh-bye." This way, which leg they drop is on your terms, not theirs, and they were going to have to use someone else anyway so it doesn't cause a staffing issue.

Last thought on the flying over 8 deal... make sure you get the additional rest and/or the reduced/compensatory rest that you are entitled to that night if the total planned flying within a 24 hour period for the next day's legs takes you into the next rest "bracket" (less than 8, 8-9, or more than 9 of scheduled flying). This is what our issue with our company is that I'm working on.

Fly Safe,,,

 

[rumorhasit]

I find it easier to think of 'legal to start, legal to finish' in regard to the leg, and not the day. So, in the original example, with 7 hours flown and 2 hours remaining, they are not 'legal to start, legal to finish', since they would be knowingly busting 8 hrs. If it was a 1 hour trip, then they could go for it.

the Key to all of this is Scheduled Flighttime Good to start good to finish applies to the day not the leg!!!

Anyone care to tangle with Reduced rest?

 

[Ace McCoy]

Be careful

Lear has is right but...

If you're really smart, you wait until the very last out-and-back (turn) in hopes that they won't catch it, then call them up and say, "I'm sorry, I just realized I'm not legal for this last turn. Have a great weekend, buh-bye."

Be careful because you are not legal to start that day so it could be a violation. You need to have your schedule changed before you start the day.

Last thought on the flying over 8 deal... make sure you get the additional rest and/or the reduced/compensatory rest that you are entitled to that night if the total planned flying within a 24 hour period for the next day's legs takes you into the next rest "bracket" (less than 8, 8-9, or more than 9 of scheduled flying). This is what our issue with our company is that I'm working on.

The rest between duty periods is based on scheduled rest. So if you are scheduled to fly say 7:59 in a 24 hour period you need 9 hours of normal rest. if you actually fly 9 hours due to say weather you still only need the 9 hours of normal rest (reduceable to 8). You are not entitled to the 11 hours of normal rest (reduceable to 9) because you were scheduled for only 7:59. Of course if you have a schedule change you have to add up your actual flying with the change to recalculate your required rest.

Otherwise you are right on and thanks for clearing things up.

 

[Lear70]

Be careful because you are not legal to start that day so it could be a violation. You need to have your schedule changed before you start the day.

I asked our POI about this specifically, and he said as long as at some point during the day a leg is removed that makes the day legal, you're good to go. Some would argue this, saying that it needs to be changed the night before or the morning before you start your day, which would be fine with me because it would lend ammo to my fight against part of what you are talking about below.

The rest between duty periods is based on scheduled rest. So if you are scheduled to fly say 7:59 in a 24 hour period you need 9 hours of normal rest. if you actually fly 9 hours due to say weather you still only need the 9 hours of normal rest (reduceable to 8). You are not entitled to the 11 hours of normal rest (reduceable to 9) because you were scheduled for only 7:59. Of course if you have a schedule change you have to add up your actual flying with the change to recalculate your required rest.

You're absolutely right, as long as you use the phrase "7:59 in a 24 hour period", but that's not what I have issue with.

Additionally, "Scheduled rest", just like "Scheduled duty" is not anywhere in the regs "legal to start, legal to finish", and the FAA agrees with me. The regs are VERY specific in listing that only in scheduled FLIGHT time is it appropriate to use this "loophole". NOT in duty, and NOT in rest. Read paragraph G that someone else used earlier - you only see the words FLIGHT TIME.

The entire idea of increased rest requirements is to ensure that you are not fatigued as you fly more hours in a 24 hour rolling period. Using my day's schedule as I posted, followed by what was originally an 8 hour 10 minute reduced rest period but is now less than that because of overblocking by 2 hours, then starting the next morning BEFORE YOU STARTED THE DAY BEFORE, and originally scheduled for less than 8 but now will be more than 9 hours of flying in a 24 hour period, and you are now in the highest "rest bracket" and require at least 10 hours of reduced rest with 12 hours of compensatory rest which must begin within 24 hours of the start of your reduced rest.

You are correct in that overblocking on a SINGLE day does not require additional rest, but the FAA agrees that the ENTIRE POINT of minimum rest is to ensure that if you over-block, therefore work more, you are entitled to more rest if you're going to just keep going back on your schedule the next day.

Everything revolves around going into rest - when you enter rest you are obligated to look at the next day's "scheduled flying", add it to the flying you have already done, and see if it puts you more than 8 but less than 9, or more than 9 hours of scheduled flying within a 24 hour period. This is similar to your idea of 30 in 7 and 100 in a month limitations being solved before you start the day, you can only be "legal to start, legal to finish" prior to starting the day, just as you must be "rest legal" prior to entering rest; Whitlow proved that - read the entire Whitlow letter, it's good stuff.

We've been fighting this for 3 months now, the FAA agrees, but D.C. is dragging its heels on a Letter of Interpretation because the airlines are fighting this one as hard as they can - it's become EXTREMELY political, which is sad, considering we're talking about minimum rest requirements and SAFETY, so we've just started calling in fatigue when scenarios like this happened. F-word = get out of jail free card.

Good stuff...

 

[rumorhasit]

I think the fAR's should be changed to reflect some kind of time intranst. 8hr block in block out time should reflect some time to get to the rest!! But the airlines would fight that forever...

 

[chperplt]

I asked our POI about this specifically, and he said as long as at some point during the day a leg is removed that makes the day legal, you're good to go. Some would argue this, saying that it needs to be changed the night before or the morning before you start your day, which would be fine with me because it would lend ammo to my fight against part of what you are talking about below.

Your POI, as with most POIs is unfortunately incorrect.

If you start your day and your pairing gets changed in ANY way, you are now leg to leg. The ONLY way you are now legal to start your last leg is if the block of the day, plus the scheduled block of the last leg is under 8 hours.

Your schedule cannot be changed during the day. Once you report to work, your schedule is your schedule.

If you want absolute clarification, send a letter to the FAA chief council in DC. His office writes, interprets, and enforces the regs.. I sent him numerous letters while working on my Masters degree and he cleared up the mystery behind legal to start, legal to finish.

 

[Lear70]

Your POI, as with most POIs is unfortunately incorrect.

That is certainly your opinion. I have mine. Our POI was backed up in that interpretation by both his boss (the FSDO manager), and his boss, the Southeastern Region Manager, which is a lot of people to be wrong, considering those are the same people that oversee AirTran, Delta, and countless other smaller 121 carriers.

If you start your day and your pairing gets changed in ANY way, you are now leg to leg. The ONLY way you are now legal to start your last leg is if the block of the day, plus the scheduled block of the last leg is under 8 hours.

That's not how our company does business, nor is it how our POI and FSDO interprets and enforces the regulations. If there is a pairing change that affects legality, something must be changed to make it legal again. Once it's legal again, it's considered "legal to start, legal to finish" again, unless you have yet another pairing change in that same day (very rare).

Your schedule cannot be changed during the day. Once you report to work, your schedule is your schedule.

Ummm... dead wrong. Our schedules change all the d*mn time once we've reported to work, either to conform to FAR legalities, or for necessity of the company. Don't apply your carrier's policies to everyone else's.

If you want absolute clarification, send a letter to the FAA chief council in DC. His office writes, interprets, and enforces the regs.. I sent him numerous letters while working on my Masters degree and he cleared up the mystery behind legal to start, legal to finish.

Glad he's answering your letters, but it's not that big of a mystery since Whitlow was published. As I previously stated, together with our POI and FSDO Manager, I have sent a letter to the current Chief Counsel about rest issues; we are going on 4 months now without an official response, and our POI, FSDO Manager, and Southeastern Regional Manager are pretty d*mn p*ssed off that he won't respond in writing (they actually sent a 2nd follow-up letter, both certified mail).

Happy Independence Day to all... time to go out and play!