727 passes Mach one

[NavajoKing]

Wondering if anyone has any info on this, i heard years ago about a 727 that passed mach one after pulling some C/B on the flaps or something. Anyone know anything about this?

 

[mynameisjim]

I've seen that before (the C/B labeled "Mach"). I always wondered what pulling that did.

 

[NavajoKing]

no it was something about someone pulling out the flap C/B's and then pushing them back in and then they extented at a differant rate and the pig rolled over.

 

[Publishers]

I think you are talking about the 727 that was trying to get to a higher altitude and the game plan was to slightly extend the flaps by pulling the circuit breakers on the way out so they would not extend to the first detent. As the airplane climbed up, someone reset the breaker, the flaps went in not in sync, and then the aircraft rolled out of control.
The captain recovered the aircraft but the wings had waves in them

 

[retired guy]

OK, here`s what happened. I believe it was TWA, but don`t quote me on that point. Heavy, Heavy 727 at 370-390, something like that, Either f/o or 2nd off. left the cockpit to wizz. Capt. pulled the slat c/b and then deployed flaps to the first detent....`course this is/was highly illegal, but made a heavy, high a/c fly better(greater curve in the wing, Bernuli at work here) anyway the guy got through with his wizzing, returned to the cockpit, saw a c/b out, pushed it in, slats deployed, wheeee...727 went for a ride, major damage, emergency landing, crew has to this day denied that this happened, were all fired..I don`t think they ever got their jobs back. Happened a long time ago, so facts are fuzzy, and I have a bad case of C.R.S., so take it for what it`s worth. C.R.S.=Can`t Remember $hit

 

[RoundMotor]

The Legendaty Hoot Gibson from the TWA. There was a DC-8 that went supersonic.

 

[con-pilot]

If that is the incident in question that 72 never exceeded Mach 1. I flew that aircraft years later and it was way out of trim and handled like crap.

Believe or not it is still flying. I was talking about this airplane on 'Pprune' and someone sent me a post from 'Airliners. com' that showed the 'Hoot Gibson' 727 in service in South America.

 

[Fearless Tower]

It was the 1979 TWA 841 (not to be confused with the 1974 TWA 841 hijacked 707)

no it was something about someone pulling out the flap C/B's and then pushing them back in and then they extented at a differant rate and the pig rolled over.

Actually, all of the the slats deployed at the same time, but when the crew attempted to bring them back in they ran into a slight snag.....problem was there was a pre-existing fatigue crack in one of the slats and consequently it remained extended when the others came in. That initiated the roll, the crew was slow to react and the aircraft ended up in a spiral dive. While the crew extended the gear to slow it down, the only thing that saved that plane was the slat finally shearing off.

Here's the report:

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR81-08.pdf

Con-pilot is correct, they never got up to Mach 1. Accoridng to the report from the FDR, .96 was the highest speed acheived.

The C/B theory is the generally held belief although the Safety Board could never prove it since the flight crew deliberately bulk erased the CVR once they were on the ground.

It should also be noted that the Captain was Harvey 'Hoot' Gibson not to be confused with the astronaut Robert 'Hoot' Gibson who recently retired from SWA.

 

[Bandit60]

The Legendaty Hoot Gibson from the TWA. There was a DC-8 that went supersonic.

You beat me to it. Years ago I purchased a book about the DC-8 from the Smithsonian. It talked about how the DC-8 was the only airliner (excluding the concord) to break the sound barrier.

 

[wrxpilot]

It should also be noted that the Captain was Harvey 'Hoot' Gibson not to be confused with the astronaut Robert 'Hoot' Gibson who recently retired from SWA.

Harvey was the same one that had the little incident with that seaplane right? The one that flew off the river onto the shore? Or was that yet another "Hoot" Gibson?

The video:
http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1136021845/Nice_Take_Off

The story:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/goose_crash_story.htm

 

[NavajoKing]

Thanks for the info guys, but whats the story on the Mach 1 DC-8, i never heard this one.

 

[tomgoodman]

Supersonic DC-8?

Thanks for the info guys, but whats the story on the Mach 1 DC-8, i never heard this one.

I heard it was a British DC-8 with Rolls-Royce "Conway" engines. A crew reported that they had "accidentally" exceeded Mach 1 in level flight. Supposedly, a test crew then took the airplane up and verified that it could be done.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Here ya go....supersonic DC-8 press release.

http://www.dc-8jet.com/0-dc8-sst-flight.htm

It was a pre-delivery Canadian Pacific DC-8

 

[Princedietrich]

This trick with the slats is the origin of the Dougan modification that some 727s have. Both Sunworld jets had them. It consists of a pair of winglets, modified exhaust cones on the engines (which unfortunately eliminates the #2 TR) and a re-regging of the flaps. Essentially the flaps are selected at full up but they are REALLY at 1 or 2 degrees deployed. Makes the 727 into a dang rocket. The only time we ever saw .80 in that thing was when we were blasting THROUGH it. Had to really back off on the power to keep from overspeeding, those babies would do .87 MMO without even sweating.

Of course, having -17 engines helped too. More power! Grunt grunt grunt!

 

[RedGuy]

Here's the NTSB report.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=37981&key=0

4/4/1979

SAGINAW, MI
BOEING 727-31
N840TW
[SIZE=+0]Nonfatal [/SIZE]
Part 121 Scheduled TRANS WORLD AIRLINES INC


NTSB Identification: DCA79AA016
14 CFR Part 121 Scheduled operation of TRANS WORLD AIRLINES INC
Event occurred Wednesday, April 04, 1979 in SAGINAW, MI
Aircraft: BOEING 727-31, registration: N840TW
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES FLIGHT PILOT DATA
F S M/N PURPOSE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1-0022 79/4/4 NR.SAGINAW,MI BOEING 727-31 CR- 0 0 7 SCHED DOM PASSG SRV AIRLINE TRANSPORT, AGE
TIME - 2148 N840TW PX- 0 0 82 44, 15710 TOTAL HOURS,
DAMAGE-SUBSTANTIAL OT- 0 0 0 2597 IN TYPE, INSTRUMENT
RATED.
OPERATOR - TRANS WORLD AIRLINES,INC.
DEPARTURE POINT INTENDED DESTINATION
JAMAICA,NY MINEAPLS-ST PAUL,MN
TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF OPERATION
UNCONTROLLED ALTITUDE DEVIATIONS IN FLIGHT: UNCONTROLLED DESCENT
AIRFRAME FAILURE: IN FLIGHT IN FLIGHT: UNCONTROLLED DESCENT
PROBABLE CAUSE(S)
PILOT IN COMMAND - MISUSED OR FAILED TO USE FLAPS
PILOT IN COMMAND - IMPROPER OPERATION OF FLIGHT CONTROLS
FACTOR(S)
PILOT IN COMMAND - DIVERTED ATTENTION FROM OPERATION OF AIRCRAFT
AIRFRAME - FLIGHT CONTROL SURFACES: SPOILERS AND SLOTS-LEADING EDGE FLAPS,SPEED BRAKES
MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - IMPROPER ALIGNMENT/ADJUSTMENT
MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - ASYMETRICAL FLAPS
MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - SEPARATION IN FLIGHT
EMERGENCY CIRCUMSTANCES - PRECAUTIONARY LANDING ON AIRPORT
LATERAL CONTROL PROBLEM
PITCH CONTROL PROBLEM
REMARKS- LE SLATS EXTENDED.NR7 SLAT DID NOT SUBSEQUENTLY FULLY RETRACT,RESULTING IN ASYMMETRICAL SLATS

 

[2EASYPilot]

Please correct me...but I believe Hoot actually returned to flight status and retired.

 

[con-pilot]

It should also be noted that the Captain was Harvey 'Hoot' Gibson not to be confused with the astronaut Robert 'Hoot' Gibson who recently retired from SWA.

Quite correct, I was remiss in not pointing that out.

Thank you.

 

[BenWA]

(greater curve in the wing, Bernuli at work here)

Not to nitpick, but correction: Coanda at work here, not Bernoulli.

 

[Huggyu2]

As a side note, a friend of mine was the co-pilot of the KC-135 that went supersonic ~1983.
I can sure see a 727 going supersonic long before I could imagine the -135 doing it.

 

[AerroMatt]

Here ya go....supersonic DC-8 press release.

http://www.dc-8jet.com/0-dc8-sst-flight.htm

It was a pre-delivery Canadian Pacific DC-8

According to this press release, it appears that the aircraft experienced both rudder and aileron flutter during the time they were supersonic. Amazing that this bird experienced no structural damage, let alone no separation of control surfaces.

When I consider the Airbus that lost its vertical stabilizer over NYC 5 years ago and compare that to this report, all I can say is, "They sure don't build em like they used to."

Those test pilots who did this stunt had to have had cajones of solid rock.