30 in 7 strange question

[dondk]

I got a strange question...

In this past weeks bad weather I had a trip that departed from the gate, taxied, sat on a 1 hour plus de-ice line to be eventually cancelled. Total time gate to gate was just under 2 hours.

The question is... Scheduling stated that the time DID NOT count towards 30 in 7 as the taxi time was NOT for the purpose of flight.

This is derived from Part 1
Flight time (1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight and ends when an aircraft comes to rest after landing

Not withstanding, it DOES count for everything else.. (8 in 24, 100 in 30, 1000 in a year). This is because we were being compensated.

Does this sound legit? or did the "creative" math just cause a bust?

thanks...

 

[ExAF]

It should count and I'd call the scheduler (or his/her supervisor) on it. I doubt you were taxiing with the intent of "deicing and aircraft and returning to the gate." You were taxiing with the intent of "FLIGHT." Happy New Year!

 

[SkywayFO]

I would agree you intended to fly when you left so it was a "flight" and it was "flight time".

 

[LR25]

Schedulers, they can be creative.

There reasoning might be becuase you never took off "after the fact".

Let me put in another form, say you are 27/7 at the time you taxi out, you have a 1.5 scheduled flight time for that leg, on the taxi out you have a 1.7 delay, then you take off and you get to your destination.

Now you are at 3.2 for that entire segment for pay purposes. The question is, are you over the 30/7 by .2, or are you 28.5/7?

I think you will be at 28.5 as far as the regs are concerned.

This might be why they are saying what they are saying, but if flighttime is considered as soon as the aircraft moves under its own power for an intended flight, than it may be different.

I guess this wasnt as helpful as when I started typing, sorry.

But a few ideas anyhow.

 

[DougCorp-9]

"Let me put in another form, say you are 27/7 at the time you taxi out, you have a 1.5 scheduled flight time for that leg, on the taxi out you have a 1.7 delay, then you take off and you get to your destination.

Now you are at 3.2 for that entire segment for pay purposes. The question is, are you over the 30/7 by .2, or are you 28.5/7?"


The correct answer is you are over 30/7 by .2 but since your were legaly scheduled to start the day then you are legal to finish the day.

 

[ClassG]

Here's how I'd look at it:

The aircraft left the gate with pax, expecting to get to the destination.

It was "released" legally, for a flight.

If something happened with that aircraft under your (and your crew members) control, you'd have been responsible.

And, most importantly...
If this "flags" and the FAA investigates, do you think you could reason your way out of it? I doubt it. Crew Scheduling will be at fault too, but it's your ticket you're worried about.

Wouldn't allow it myself.

Good luck.

 

[dispatchguy]

I agree

As a former UAL pilot crew scheduler, that time you sat on the ramp not moving should count towards your 30-N-7 time, or any other time. You were off the gate for the purpose of flight - granted you didnt fly, but thats irrelevant.

I'd grab a NASA form for $hits and giggles in any event.

 

[LR25]

(Quote)
"As a former UAL pilot crew scheduler, that time you sat on the ramp not moving should count towards your 30-N-7 time, or any other time. You were off the gate for the purpose of flight - granted you didnt fly, but thats irrelevant."



Is it really irrelevent?

Say you did a maint. run for the company, how does it differ if you had a gate return?

I'm not questioning "your" comment, I'm just posing a different senario since you have experience in the field of being a scheduler.

We would always do maint. runs or A/C repositions(on the ramp) for the company and we would get compensated for it.

Thanks.

 

[dispatchguy]

I know in some contracts ground movement like that is built in for, but those arent for the purpose of flight - well a direct purpose of flight.

You may be moving the aircraft from a remote park spot to the terminal, but its not a revenue operation, nor any flight, so that time, I dont think, would fall under the 8 hour limitation, nor a 30-N-7 calculation.

You might have a contractual provision providing for additional duty time (and if you dont - you should), or even flight-rate time for pay purposes, but I dont think that type of 'time' is considered in the 8-N-24 or 30-N-7, or any other type of time.

 

[up frnt]

My .02 cents worth from a new 121 type guy.

First, when you moved from the gate for de-icing, you were not moving with the intent to fly. Your intent was to prepare to go flying. The A/C was not legal to fly if it needed to be de-iced.

Second, my understanding is that, if you spend one hour waiting for de-icing then you can not add that to your 30-n-7 time. You were not in the act of intending to fly. But if you were waiting at the end of the runway for that hour for ACT delays, WX, the moon to rise ect, then that would count toward your 30-n-7 time.

Third, if you have any question about the legality of the flight. Call the dispatch or schedualing on a recorded line. Make your doubts known in no uncertain terms and have them tell you that you are legal to fly. This may not help if you get violated but you will not hang alone.