280kts Below 10K???

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I knew a guy who was flying about 6500' in an midwestern approach airspace.

ATC suddenly came on the radio and, in a very raised voice said "xxx, you need to fly 280 knots NOW!"

What was up with that, and was it violating FARs to speed up to 280 below 10???

cliff
YIP

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

You know, I've had this argument before with people and maybe I'll have it again but any thing can be done with coordination and approaval. Now it states somewhere, I don't know if its in the FAR's or the 7110.65 but exceeding 250kts below 10,000 can be done with administrator approaval. Now, the way my old ATM explained that clause to me was we are representing the administrator becuase we are the controllers and we can approave faster then 250kts below 10. A good example is the low altitudes outside of houston off the coast, I believe they are authorized 280kts. We at O'hare approave Heavy Jet departures that can't comply with crossing restrictions on the O'hare 2 and need to go fast as fast as they need to go to climb safetly. I haven't seen anything faster then 290kts yet but it is done daily with coordination. If it is an operational necessity....the way I look at that is if you need the speed you need the speed. If a controller asked for that speed out of a plane he was probably about to have a deal. Maybe not. None the less, you aren't going to get a PD if you comply with the controllers instructions. The captain is ultimatly responsible but from a controller standpoint.....if he was instructed to do so and did it, not to worry. If he was instructed to do so and didn't because of the rules, not to worry.

 

[tomgoodman]

Close call

ATC suddenly came on the radio and, in a very raised voice said "xxx, you need to fly 280 knots NOW!"

Yeah, that happened to me once. Turns out there was a cockroach on the scope, right behind my blip and closing fast.

 

[Flyin2low]

Controllers are not the Administrator. The 250kts below 10,000' was instituted during the horizon of jet aircraft. It's foundation was to allow aircraft to see and avoid below 10000' with the mix of slow prop aircraft and fast jet aircraft. The only legitimate way to exceed the regulation is to have a signed letter from the Administrator or an Emergency.

 

[SSDD]

While an individual controller is not the Administrator, and authority to routinely operate above 250KTS below 10,000' comes by letter of agreement, if a controller says, "you need to be doing 280KTS NOW' I'm going to comply and sort of the details later.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Controllers are not the Administrator. The 250kts below 10,000' was instituted during the horizon of jet aircraft. It's foundation was to allow aircraft to see and avoid below 10000' with the mix of slow prop aircraft and fast jet aircraft. The only legitimate way to exceed the regulation is to have a signed letter from the Administrator or an Emergency.

I don't agree. We authorize it daily without an LOA. And if it is an operational necessity, not an emergency it can and does get approved all the time.

 

[regionalcap]

There was quite a lengthy discussion on this a couple of years ago. About 10 pages if you care to read any of it.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=71423

 

[regionalcap]

Volume 58, No. 157; Tuesday, August 17, 1993; Page 43553
14 CFR Part 91

[Docket No. 24456; Amendment No. 91-233]

Airspace Reclassification

AGENCY:
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), DOT.

ACTION:
Final rule; correcting amendment.

SUMMARY:
This action corrects the Airspace Reclassification Final Rule effective September 16, 1993. The Airspace Reclassification Rule inadvertently assigned the authority to air traffic controllers to allow aircraft operators to deviate from the maximum airspeed restriction below 10,000 feet. The authority to approve deviation from the speed limits contained in the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) rests with the Administrator, and the FAA did not intend to amend the approving authority. This action reestablishes the Administrator as the proper authority to permit waivers of aircraft speed. This action also corrects the inadvertent inclusion of Class B airspace in the maximum airspeed restriction effected by the Airspace Reclassification Final Rule.



SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:

Background
On October 18, 1989, the FAA published a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on Airspace Reclassification (54 FR 42916) which proposed, among other things, that the nomenclature of various airspace areas be renamed to conform with agreements with the International Civil Aviation Organization. On December 17, 1991, the FAA published a final rule on Airspace Reclassification (56 FR 65638) which becomes effective on September 16, 1993. Section 91.117 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR 91.117) was amended as part of this process.
Section 91.117(a) requires that any aircraft operated below 10,000 feet be flown no faster than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.) unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator of the FAA. Section 91.117(b) provides that, unless authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within an airport traffic area faster than 200 knots (230 m.p.h.), except for operations within a terminal control area. The preamble to the proposed airspace reclassification rule included a discussion of several recommendations received from the National Airspace Review (NAR) task group. NAR 1-2.1.3 recommended several changes to operating requirements in Terminal Control Areas (Class B airspace). Included in NAR 1-2.1.3 was a recommendation to delegate the authority to approve deviation from the 250 knot speed restriction in Class B airspace to air traffic control. The FAA had adopted other portions of NAR 1-2.2.3 through separate actions, but had not intended to incorporate the recommended delegation of authority or include Class B airspace in the 200 knot rule. However, the rule language amending Sec. 91.117(a) inadvertently included such redelegation, and that amending Sec. 91.117(b) inadvertently included the Class B airspace area. This action establishes the Administrator as the sole approving authority for deviations from the aircraft speed restrictions contained in Sec. 91.117(a) and excludes the Class B airspace area from the speed restrictions contained in Sec. 91.117(b).

 

[samballs]

Volume 58, No. 157; Tuesday, August 17, 1993; Page 43553
14 CFR Part 91

[Docket No. 24456; Amendment No. 91-233]

Airspace Reclassification

AGENCY:
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), DOT.

ACTION:
Final rule; correcting amendment.

SUMMARY:
This action corrects the Airspace Reclassification Final Rule effective September 16, 1993. The Airspace Reclassification Rule inadvertently assigned the authority to air traffic controllers to allow aircraft operators to deviate from the maximum airspeed restriction below 10,000 feet. The authority to approve deviation from the speed limits contained in the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) rests with the Administrator, and the FAA did not intend to amend the approving authority. This action reestablishes the Administrator as the proper authority to permit waivers of aircraft speed. This action also corrects the inadvertent inclusion of Class B airspace in the maximum airspeed restriction effected by the Airspace Reclassification Final Rule.



SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:

Background
On October 18, 1989, the FAA published a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on Airspace Reclassification (54 FR 42916) which proposed, among other things, that the nomenclature of various airspace areas be renamed to conform with agreements with the International Civil Aviation Organization. On December 17, 1991, the FAA published a final rule on Airspace Reclassification (56 FR 65638) which becomes effective on September 16, 1993. Section 91.117 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR 91.117) was amended as part of this process.
Section 91.117(a) requires that any aircraft operated below 10,000 feet be flown no faster than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.) unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator of the FAA. Section 91.117(b) provides that, unless authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within an airport traffic area faster than 200 knots (230 m.p.h.), except for operations within a terminal control area. The preamble to the proposed airspace reclassification rule included a discussion of several recommendations received from the National Airspace Review (NAR) task group. NAR 1-2.1.3 recommended several changes to operating requirements in Terminal Control Areas (Class B airspace). Included in NAR 1-2.1.3 was a recommendation to delegate the authority to approve deviation from the 250 knot speed restriction in Class B airspace to air traffic control. The FAA had adopted other portions of NAR 1-2.2.3 through separate actions, but had not intended to incorporate the recommended delegation of authority or include Class B airspace in the 200 knot rule. However, the rule language amending Sec. 91.117(a) inadvertently included such redelegation, and that amending Sec. 91.117(b) inadvertently included the Class B airspace area. This action establishes the Administrator as the sole approving authority for deviations from the aircraft speed restrictions contained in Sec. 91.117(a) and excludes the Class B airspace area from the speed restrictions contained in Sec. 91.117(b).

Way to ruin this website, you should know that facts on this site aren't taken correctly!

 

[Say Again Over]

Agree, controllers can't legally authorize you to go above 250 KTS below 10, and large aircraft that must exceed the limit have always had permission, controller authorization not required.

 

[kingairyahoo]

Agree, controllers can't legally authorize you to go above 250 KTS below 10, and large aircraft that must exceed the limit have always had permission, controller authorization not required.

call it what you want...but houston has been doin it for quite some time, and ive yet to hear ANYONE question them

***disclaimer*** i havent been to houston in a few years and am not sure if they do it anymore?!?

 

[SSDD]

Should have started with your disclaimer.

The experiment in Houston was terminated over a year ago. And it was an experiment authorized by the Administrator.

 

[Say Again Over]

Kingairyahoo, as SSDD mentions, that situation at IAH was a temporary experiment that ended.

 

[ratvis]

I was assigned 250kts or greater climbing through 6000' in class E airspace last week....wish the controllers would stop confusing us dumb pilots.

 

[TheRaven]

were they talking to a military aircraft?

 

[AV80R]

While an individual controller is not the Administrator, and authority to routinely operate above 250KTS below 10,000' comes by letter of agreement, if a controller says, "you need to be doing 280KTS NOW' I'm going to comply and sort of the details later.

Sure just make sure you follow up with a NASA from...

 

[SSDD]

I'll do better than that, I'll file an ASAP.