2 hours in day VFR?

[klubic]

I plan on asking my local FSDO about this, but they're closed so until then...

I'm working on a part 61 multi-engine commercial license. In regard to 61.129(b)(3)(iii): "One cross country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions..."

Would a 2.1 hour, day VFR flight with .1 actual (to fly through a layer, etc.) satisfy this requirement?

 

[PropsForward]

A DPE or Inspector will most likely not accept this since the 0.1 makes the flight operating under Instrument Flight Rules. You would be hard pressed to prove you were flying VFR, then switched to IFR, went IMC, then VMC, then went back VFR all in 6 minutes. Thats all assuming that you were in class G airspace. If you were in controlled airspace you needed to be on an IFR flight plan and that would really be pushing the envelope for getting that 0.1 of actual.

The good news is that this does not have to be in a multi-engine airplane. You can make this flight in a single-engine airplane and save a buck or two.

The even better news is that if you check your logbook, you may have already satisfied this requirement back when you were working on your private pilot. I know I fly my students day and night dual VFR to meet the commercial regs for this very reason, your instructor may have as well.

 

[johnpeace]

I'm working on a part 61 multi-engine commercial license. In regard to 61.129(b)(3)(iii): "One cross country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions..."

Uh...
Am I missing something?

 

[klubic]

Well, to put it another way...

Does the entire flight need to be VFR, or only the 2 hours that is required? For example, you could have more than 2 hours of VFR, with only a moment of IFR required to break through some IMC. Would that mommentary IFR invalidate the entire flight as being VFR?

 

[wheelsup]

One cross country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions

I bolded for effect. By my reading, it seems that the entire flight must be done in day VFR conditions, and that it must be atleast 2 hours in duration. So even if you go over 2 hours, the flight must be completed VFR. Thoughts?

~wheelsup

 

[Lead Sled]

Just to play the devil's advocate...

First of all, I'm assuming that you guys can make a legally file IFR - right? If it's going to be an issue, why even bother logging the ".1" as IFR? You are only legally required to log flight time to show currency. Just depart with an IFR to VFR conditions clearance, blast up through the deck, cancel the IFR portion of the clearance and boogey. Hell's bells, there are a lot of days here in SOCAL when it's legal VFR, but the vis is so bad that you'd never dare actually fly VFR. Another question, just how thick is the layer you're going to be flying through? 500' to 1000' maybe? At 500 fpm that's a couple of minutes at the most. Are you really going to log .03 IFR? How about a Special VFR departure? I'm not suggesting that you do anything untoward, but a little bit of "practicality" can go a long way here. You are compling with the "spirit" of the regulation (2+ hours VFR), if not the "letter" of it (2 minutes or less in IFR conditions).

Now for other opinions...

 

[IP076]

Actually this flight could be conducted on an IFR flight plan, you would just have to remain in Day VFR Conditions the whole flight.

And I'm pretty sure this has to be done in a Multi Engine airplane for the Commercial Multi, and again in a single for the single commercial.

 

[Ralgha]

Actually this flight could be conducted on an IFR flight plan, you would just have to remain in Day VFR Conditions the whole flight.

No it can't. The reg says "VFR", not "VMC". If you are on an instrument flight plan/clearance, you are not operating VFR, even if you are in VMC.

 

[Ralgha]

And I'm pretty sure this has to be done in a Multi Engine airplane for the Commercial Multi, and again in a single for the single commercial.

Nope. I did it in a single for my single commercial (initial). The multi addon didn't require another X/C.

 

[PropsForward]

Ralgha is right, just once. Most people get their commercial in a single (because it is cheaper), then do the multi-add-on. Since your already a commercial pilot, training for the multi add-on is to proficiency, and at the checkride you only have the do the multi-engine stuff. (Ref §61.63).

Second, as mentioned before, do not confuse VFR with VMC. The feds want you to plan, preflight, and execute a flight under Visual Flight Rules. Most people at this point are instrument rated, but for some god unknow reason the feds want to see this VFR flight.

Note to CFI's: Be nice to your private pilot students and have them plan one of the day VFR and the night VFR flight to meet this reg. That way they don't have to do it again later. The nut of this topic is that a commercial pilot is going to have to go up with an instructor and fly 2 hrs for a sandwich and come back to cross this item off the to-do list.

Now, if you're looking to be creative, note the reg say 2 hrs, and 100nm, in most airplanes this is only 40 min each way (even less in a twin). That is fine, use the extra 40 min you need (for a total of 2 hrs) working on lazy 8's and steep spirals while enroute. This way you can at least have some productive benefit from this flight while complying with the letter of the law.

 

[prpjt]

(Second, as mentioned before, do not confuse VFR with VMC)

(No it can't. The reg says "VFR", not "VMC".)


61.129(b)(3)(iii): "One cross country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in
day VFR conditions..."

 

[minitour]

Lead:
I'm with you on this one...don't log the actual. You don't have to anyway, so why bother logging .1 when its really (as you said) more like .04 or .05.

Propsforward:
Could a CFI have a student pilot plan and fly this XC and meet both the PP XC requirements (50nm) AND the Comm XC requirements (100nm) on the same flight?

IOW:
If I fly with my CFI as a student pilot from here to Kentuckyhucky and back both Day VFR and Night VFR. And it is 120nm one way...does that satisfy the PPL and CPL requirements? So I don't have to do them again? Or are you just saying to do the extra flight with the student pilot so its done?

-mini

 

[wmuflyguy]

deleted

 

[IP076]

61.129 pretty clearly states that you need a 2 hr Day VFR Conditions and 2 hr Night VFR conditions for a commercial pilot cert. It also pretty clearly divides it up so that it applies for Single or Multi. The way it reads, you need the cross country in a multi engine airplane for the multi.

Also the reg clearly states "in Day VFR Conditions" it does not say "Visual Flight Rules". Doesn't matter what kind of flight plan you are on, as long as you are "in day VFR conditions".

From 61.123:

(f) Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought before applying for the practical test;

 

[PropsForward]

Lead:
Could a CFI have a student pilot plan and fly this XC and meet both the PP XC requirements (50nm) AND the Comm XC requirements (100nm) on the same flight?

IOW:
If I fly with my CFI as a student pilot from here to Kentuckyhucky and back both Day VFR and Night VFR. And it is 120nm one way...does that satisfy the PPL and CPL requirements? So I don't have to do them again? Or are you just saying to do the extra flight with the student pilot so its done?

-mini

Yes, the example you described will satisfy both the PPL and CPL regs. Don't fly an extra flight, just plan a longer flight. For PPL You need 3hrs of x-country dual time. If you plan smartly, you can plan a 2hr day VFR flight and a 2hr night VFR flight (each 100+nm one way)that will satisfy both the PPL and CPL requirements, then you will be effectively be killing 2 birds with one stone and only be 1hr over the min requirements for PPL. You got 10hrs of time to play with anyways (20hrs dual + 10hrs solo = 30 hrs, 40hr needed for PPL = 10hrs to play with).



My day VFR flights tend to focus on pilotage and dead reckoning. While the night VFR flight is focused on radio navigation. This worked very well with all of my students. If later they decided to move on to their commercial, then this was not a step they would have to revisit.

 

[PropsForward]

Also the reg clearly states "in Day VFR Conditions" it does not say "Visual Flight Rules". Doesn't matter what kind of flight plan you are on, as long as you are "in day VFR conditions".

What part of flying through a cloud meets "Day VFR conditions".



This is not too tough. Flying through a cloud or next to a cloud (less than 500/1000/2000, or whatever applies to the airspace you're in at the time). Does not come close to meeting "VFR Conditions". This becomes a composite flight and is really flexing the letter of the regs pretty far.



If it is already in your log book it is going to look weird that the .1 of IMC logged was unjustified and scratched out from the column. This is getting dangerously close to falsifying records and the DPE or Inspector may not want to play along.



You best option is to contact the DPE or Inspector and talk to them about it. You have enough information on this thread to come up with a good reason that justifies the .1 IMC and the 2.0 VMC meeting the regs for the Cert. If he buys in on it then you're home free, nobody will ever look that that line in your logbook again.

If he does not buy in on it, try another DPE.

 

[IP076]

Hey Man, read my posts...no where did I say flying thru a cloud was Day VFR conditions...

I'm on the argument of whether or not you can file IFR (and fly in VFR conditions) and meet the intent of this regulation. I say you can.

Now, about logging that one way or the other, thats up for him, the PIC, to decide. I'd say he kind of blew it cause the whole flight has to be in day VFR conditions.

I usually take a student to LAS and back, more than 100 nm, about a 1.7 or so, easily streched into a 2.0 with a few manuevers. Go there during daylight, get some grub, fly back at night. I think thats pretty standard at my school for this. At least it gets the two single engine requirements out of the way.

 

[minitour]

Yes, the example you described will satisfy both the PPL and CPL regs. Don't fly an extra flight, just plan a longer flight....If later they decided to move on to their commercial, then this was not a step they would have to revisit.

Thanks!

I'm sure I'll have a student some day that will appreciate it...or maybe not...all I hear from most of the "students" at school is:

"My daddy works for ___ airline and after my Commercial Multi checkride, I'm getting a B737 type so I can go straight to work for ___ airline...My daddy says these instructors are stupid...My daddy says that the way ___ teaches landings isn't the REAL way you land...My daddy...My daddy...this is wrong...that is wrong."

Puhleeze...These guys are trying to teach you how to fly a friggin airplane. If you fail, they have to find (what is it 8?) other people to pass just to save their ass!

Okay...vent over...thanks!

-mini

 

[PropsForward]

I'm on the argument of whether or not you can file IFR (and fly in VFR conditions) and meet the intent of this regulation. I say you can.

IP076, You are correct, you can file IFR and then make the flight in VMC that would be legal. I didn't intend to upset you on this. You are correct.

The only caution here is that if your on an IFR flight plan, and it is not an absolute beautiful Sunday afternoon, the odds are if some weather pops up that you will most likely punch on through. This defeats the purpose of the reg. and the temptation may be too hard to resist. At best, you're going to have to write the IMC time off anyways to get the needed compliant logbook entry.

There is also no argument that this is one of them "stupid" regs, because if you meet the commercial mins. (50hr X-ctry), then odds are you have the experience to go someplace new and not get lost. To be sitting in the 250hr neighborhood and having to go fly a dual x-ctry really hits me as a waste of time.

Peace.

 

[minitour]

...
There is also no argument that this is one of them "stupid" regs, because if you meet the commercial mins. (50hr X-ctry), then odds are you have the experience to go someplace new and not get lost. To be sitting in the 250hr neighborhood and having to go fly a dual x-ctry really hits me as a waste of time.

Peace.

Amen to that!