135 dead head leg

[proav]

Here is a question.

If you are called to fly from point "A" to point "B" to pick up pax
to take to point "C" then drop off and fly dead head back to point
"A", are the dead head legs considered to be 91 or 135.
I once had a Fed tell me that the leg from "A" to "B" and from "B"
to "C" were 135 but from "C" back to "A" was 91. I know of a
135 operator that considers any deadhead leg as 91.
Should all legs be considered 135 since the customer is technically
being charged for all legs.
Just curious as to how someone else interprets it.

 

[cvsfly]

Even though the client is paying for all legs, I have always considered the 135 legs to be the ones with passengers aboard. You might as well say that the customer is paying the value of leg A, B, and C on leg B. We still account for flight and duty time limitations, since you are in the employ of the charter operator (so the 91 legs are commercial flying), but issues of required weather reporting, approach requirements, etc would not apply. With that being said, we don't operate much differently on those legs. No paper weight and balance record and we don't give ourselves pax safety briefings on those legs.

 

[00Dog]

Once the pax are out, our company considers it 91.

 

[Publishers]

135

I acutally went through this very situation with the FAA.

It is 91 as the customer is only paying to get between A and B.

This came up as there were a couple of cases where pilots ran out of duty time and I had a 91 pilot available to bring the aircraft back who met our insurance requirements.

 

[Rick1128]

From the 'Letters of Interpretation' I have read, any reposition legs at the font of a trip are 91 for weather and 135 for flight and duty time. Reposition legs at the back end of the trip are totally 91. Flight crew can exceed flight and duty time. However, when I did that I would use the extended rest requirements to cover my ass.

The feds I have talked with have stated while they may not like that ruling, they live with it. But heaven help you if you have an accident or incident. And I believe legal takes the same position.

 

[DitchDriver]

Rick1128 -

"Reposition legs at the back end of the trip are totally 91. Flight crew can exceed flight and duty time."

I have heard of operators interpreting rules like that, but not the FAA. What 'Letters of Interpretation' have you read?

Repositioning at the end of the trip is still "duty", just like unloading freight or filling out company paperwork etc. But it does make sense if they say that "once passengers are out, it's all 91". I also have been told (by operator) that there's a requirement of 10 hours of rest to report for duty, but no requirement to go off duty. Once I was on duty, they could keep me on it indefinitely.

I have seen (FSDO approved) 135 ops manual that said "Duty time ... commensing ... until the aircraft blocks in at the completion of flight or series of flights". So unloading freight, doing company postflight paperwork and making calls is not duty at all!

Unfortunately, I have also heard that for FAA to bust the company, they have to violate the pilot first.

"However, when I did that I would use the extended
rest requirements to cover my ass."

Now, there's no provision for extended rest due to excess duty time - only for exceeding (8 or 10 hours) flight time.

 

[Rick1128]

Ditchdriver, you are correct in that the reg refers to flight time. As for the return flights, the FAA guidance requires the pilot and company to look back the previous 24 hours to find 10 hours rest. If the pilot elects to return home, legally the flight is totally 91. But the flight/duty time still has to be recorded with a notation that it was conducted under 91. Many companies interpret these letters to mean that the pilot may at his option elect to return home part 91. However other companies interpret it to mean they can order the crew home. It is not really defined in any of the legal findings I have read.

Yes, the feds will violate both the company and the pilot. That is one of the reasons, I document the reasons for the flight time and duty time overages. A trip report with my paperwork and a copy for my records.

The 'Letters of Interpretation' are issued by FAA Legal. Most of them issued by the FAA Head Counsel. Usually the define not the reg itself but the phrasology of the reg. Other times they will clear up the less clear areas of a reg. They are public information and available to the public.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The company I fly for interprets the FAA regs exactly as Rick 1128 specified. Going out to pick up cargo is 91, but counts towards duty day and flight time (a lot of captains noted that if you have to use 91 rules to get into an airfield, you usually can't get out with the freight 135).

After cargo is unloaded, it's totally a 91 flight for the repositioning. We usually go, but sometimes the capt says we're too tired and we're staying. Sometimes the co. puts pressure on the capt to go, but if he says we stay, we stay.

Note: I have learned that talking to a Fed, or getting a "ruling" from a Fed is not binding on anyone. Only the legal rulings that are made (as in the Letters of Interpretation) are actually useable by the co./pilots and FAA.

At our co. we are having a problem with the Crew Duty Day of 14 hrs. The Co. says we can go beyond that, just like with the flight time, if there are "unexpected delays". In our systems class, our instructor said his longest duty day was 23 hours! Most of us don't think you can go over 14 duty hours unless that last part, that made you go over, was the 91 repositioning leg at the end. Apparently, the co. doesn't agree. So far I haven't gone over a 14 hour duty day.

Cliff
GRB

 

[Rick1128]

Cliff,

For landing, it depends on if you're a single pilot or two pilot operation. If a two pilot crew then you can use reduced takeoff minimums from your Operations Specifications. So that can be usable.

I have read copies of 'Letters of Interpretation' stating that duty time can exceed 14 hours if it is beyond the pilot's control. But I ave seen that interpretation abused so much. The new ruling on Part 121 time will filter down to the 135 operators shortly. In short NO 135 flying beyond 10 and 14.

 

[Pilot877]

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