135.267 How does your operator view it???

[avpro91]

A pilot begins a part 135 trip as a single pilot in lets say a king air 200, and the original assignment includes 5 hours of flight time. Upon completion of the last leg, the company wants to dispatch the pilot and aircraft for another two legs planned also at 5 hours of flight time. (Total planned flight time for the duty period 10 hrs.) Being single pilot this is illegal as per 135.267 (single pilot- unscheduled operations: 8 hrs flight time max). However.....dispatch wants to add a qualified co-pilot for the next two legs (thus making it a two-pilot crew). With a two pilot crew, they can fly for 10 hrs under 135.267. BUT the trip/duty day started single pilot.(My argument) Is it legal to accept the second duty assignment with the co-pilot???

Let me put this another way: Single pilot still in a king air 200. Planned duty /flight day calls for 8.0 hours of flying. All legal right? (within 8 hours flt time) Yes. Then you get done with the trip and dispatch wants you to do another trip consisting of two one hour legs. ( 2 more hours of flight time...10.0 total for the day) And they will give you a qualified co-pilot to make you a two pilot crew. Is this also legal then???

Keep in mind both trips are within a 14 hour duty day.....which is not an issue...the flight time is.


Myself and 90 percent of others I have talked to as well as all of my former employers say this is ILLEGAL. My current employer seems to think otherwise. The FAR doesn't specify if you can do this or not, so I guess its up to interpertation like everything else in the book.

I say if you start the day single pilot, single pilot duty/flight time rules apply.....all day.

Any other operators out there that say this is legal????

 

[400A]

Flight Time Limit

The only opinion that matters is that of your certificate POI. Request a ruling from him, he is the one that would write the violation.

I have ssen different rulings from different inspectors on this kind of issue before.

Any chance this is an Atlanta based operator?

 

[aroundtheblock]

400A is right. This is up to your POI. Problem is asking him without the operator finding out and getting pissed at you for whining.

My opinion may not be that popular. Unlike scheduled 121 operations, unscheduled 135 operations are just that, unscheduled. So what you were originally scheduled for makes no difference as long as you stay within limits. This is like them tacking on a Part 91 leg on the end of a day that would have you flying, for example, 11 hours, putting you over 135 minimums. In this case, that is legal, the 91 leg doesn't count toward 135 daily totals. But you couldn't do the Part 91 leg 1st then fly a total of 11 hours. In your case, if you flew 2 pilot for a few hours then they redispatched you single pilot for over a total of 8 hours flying, then that would be illegal.

You can always play the fatigue card, and refuse the flight, but that probably wouldn't go over too well either.

Also, make sure your company is able to use 2 pilots as a legal 135 crew. My last charter company we flew lears (2 pilot) and king air 200's (single pilot). We almost always flew 2 pilots in the king air anyway (customer request) but as far as the feds were conserned we were single pilot, even with 2 qualified captains in the cockpit.

This came up when I refused to takeoff with less than standard takeoff minimums. We had 2 legal captains in the plane, but we were not crew approved in the king air. Without a legal 135 non flying pilot you can not depart without at least standard takeoff mins (1 mile), reguardless of op specs.

Good luck.

 

[Lear70]

I'd bet good money the ATL FSDO and the Regional Headquarters would say that it's legal.

The issue is whether, at the time of the assignment, the FAR limitations are complied with. If you were going to be dispatched single-pilot, no arguments, you're illegal. If you're going from single-pilot to dual-pilot, the issue is whether the FAR's are technically being abided by.

I'm not with the FAA, but I'd say you're legal, simply because the FAR's don't specifically limit your flight time if you've been flying single pilot all day prior to the assignment of a dual-pilot flight. I'd bet good money your particular operation is VERY fluent in this type of composite assignment and believes strongly in its legality. Remember, they're subject to large fines if they're caught, so 9 times out of 10 they'll stay legal (even if it's fatiguing to you).

I'm on the 121 side of things and watch as legality gets twisted and turned, but for some reason we keep on doing it until I just cry "uncle" and call in "fatigue". With 1000+ pilots, I have that luxury - in the 135 business, you're singling yourself out for hard times, especially if you play the "fatigue" card regularly.

Good luck... long days will hopefully pay off for you in the long run with your career plans. Remember: cooperate to graduate.

 

[logjammer]

I had to write in my company manual that the most restrictive of the one pilot/two pilot situation stands. In other words, if you started single pilot and flew 5 hours and were dispatched again as a two pilot crew, you are limited to 3 hours flight for that 24 hour period. Or it works the other way around. If you were dispatched as a 2 pilot crew and flew 6 hours, you would only be good for 2 more hours single pilot. My POI made sure that was in the company manual in each place duty times were mentioned, so it was an important issue to him.

This is for 2 135 trips. Part 91 no one cares.

MKE FSDO.

 

[LJDRVR]

What your POI thinks does not matter! The only person legally able to issue an interpretation of the FARs is the Chief Legal Counsel in Washington DC. It doesn't matter if the POI gives their blessing. Other FSDO's may believe differently, and you can bet your life the folks that underwrite those King Airs will have their own views after one gets bent.

You have three different choices here. You can:

1. Operate under a "My POI said it's O.K.!" cloak of denial, which most of your 135 bretheren do. (Not recommended)

2. You can insist your employer inserts specific language into the operations manual stating the guidlines fo such dispatch. (Good luck getting your POI to sign it.)

3. You can write the FAA Chief Legal Counsel for a ruling. (Be prepared to wait a few years.)

In the meantime, you have to protect you and your certificate. If your employer is not willing to attempt choice number two above, you need to find a tactful way to start telling them no. Far to many 135 PIC's needlessly endanger their careers because of stuff like this. It's nice to see you attempting to actually research what needs to be done. A lot of well-meaning folks simply take the word of their Chief Pilot or D.O. who tells them: "Our POI says it's O.K. to do_________." (Insert questionable act here.)

I'll do some research for you, in the meantime, contact one of the fine folks at www.jetlaw.com. Kent Jackson or one of his attornies will be a lot more helpful than me.

Good Luck!

 

[logjammer]

Thanks for the final word almighty learjet driver, or Captain Obvious. He wanted to know what other operators are doing and I told him what we did.

Next time my POI tells me to update something in the manual I'm going to tell him "blow me, you guys don't know dink. You serve no purpose, I want to get this right from Washington, or at least good old Kent Jackson."

People can take this FSDO vs FSDO crap to far. Yes they all interpret things differently and we all know where the final authority comes from. However, if I have complied with my local FSDO, have an approved manual and operate within it's stated procedures what more do you think we should do? Call the head donkeys and get legal's sign off on everything contained in the manual?

It would be a small revision to add to the company manual, saying that the most resrictive flight time applies in such situation. Your taking the conservative side, the safe side, and I don't think your POI would have any problem stamping that.

That is how I did it, but I'm sure my whole manual is an illegal steaming pile of *^$ since a POI signed off on it.

 

[LJDRVR]

Logjammer,

Thanks for the hyperbole and the sarcasm dude. There's nothing wrong with doing things as you suggested. What I cautioned him against (Maybe I should have been more specific) is to allow a POI to issue a verbal or written interpretation of a reg that could go one way or the other. (Your OPS manual is different) That won't hold water with any fuzz that ramps you on the other side of the country, or your insurance company if metal is bent.

I can see how you'd take offense to my post since it seems from your initial response that you are an honorable DO. Unfortunately, for every guy like you, there are 3 others who don't give a rats patoot about compliance, as long as the revenue leg gets flown. Sorry you took offense, but I'm just trying to provide this guy with some possible resources, just like you were.

Take Care,

LJDRVR

 

[logjammer]

It's cool. You are correct, and it was important that you noted, If a POI says it, make sure it is stamped.

Now the insurance scammers, don't get me started........

 

[Indigo]

I say if you start the day single pilot, single pilot duty/flight time rules apply.....all day.

That's the way my operator looks at it. If you look back 24 hours and any of your flight time was single pilot you are limited to 8 hours, not 10.