135.225 Are clouds included?

[flyrunner80]

Do you have to have both visibility and cloud height to begin an instrument approach flying Part 135?

I got into a scuffle with a fellow pilot about this. So I went to the bible and in Part 135 verse 225 is says:

No pilot may begin an instrument approach procedure to an airport unless
(2) the latest weather report issued by that weather reporting facility indicates that weather conditions are at or above the authorized IFR landing minimums for that airport.

His argument was weather conditions mean clouds and visibilty. So if the clouds are below your MDA, DH and have 10sm visibility then you can't shoot.
He tells me whatever altitude is listed in the MDA, DH, and vis requirement for that approach....you have to have both???????????

I didn't concure because I thought landing mins where visibility, looked up the definition of landing minimums and it says:

The minimum visibility prescribed for landing a civil aircraft while using an instrument approach procedure.

I've gotten imput from other people (the FISDO) and they weren't able to give me a straight answer. Talk to a chief pilot of a 135 operation and he said visibility.
So if there are any 135 flyers out there, I'd like to know what you have to say

 

[keatts]

the way I read minimums is that visibility is required, but the MDA/DA is just the altitude you can decend to. So since you can't land with less than the prescribed vis that would be a required minimum. The plates say nothing about clouds and ceiling, just how low you can go.

Ceiling is only required for alternate required and alternate minimums per the FAR or ops-spec.

Again, this is the way I read it, and the way our DO/CP interpret for our operations.

I also remember reading someplace that the feds tried to cite someone for this very thing, but was overturned on appeal.

keatts

 

[minitour]

the way I read minimums is that visibility is required, but the MDA/DA is just the altitude you can decend to. So since you can't land with less than the prescribed vis that would be a required minimum. The plates say nothing about clouds and ceiling, just how low you can go....

I agree.

The MDA or DH is just the minimum altitude you can have your airplane on the approach. It has nothing to do with clouds.....okay well I guess it does since if you're still in the soup at DH or MDA that has a bearing on your miss...but you understand.

JMHO

-mini

 

[flyrunner80]

Thanks that's what I was thinking. I appreciate your feedback!!!

 

[Swerpipe]

Ceiling is not part of the weather minimum

There is really no difference in Part 91 or Part 135 regarding what constitutes the minimum weather for shooting the approach. Visiblity is the only criteria UNLESS the approach chart specifies "Ceiling Required". There is a VOR approach in Guatemala that comes to mind and has that restriction. The only difference between Part 135 and Part 91 is that in part 135 you need to have the minimum vis prior to leaving the FAF and you don't need that in Part 91. There have been countless approaches where it appeared that I wouldn't be able to see the runway at minimums based on the celing but I did and was able to make a safe landing. Now if you are shotting an approach at Aspen and the celing is 200 feet and the MDA is 3000 feet above airport elevation you are still legal to shoot it but are you smart? I don't think so...

 

[C425Driver]

Here is the definition of Landing Minimums from the pilot/controller glossary. It does not mention ceilings, just visibility and DH/MDA.

http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/PCG/index.htm

LANDING MINIMUMS- The minimum visibility prescribed for landing a civil aircraft while using an instrument approach procedure. The minimum applies with other limitations set forth in 14 CFR Part 91 with respect to the Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA) or Decision Height (DH) prescribed in the instrument approach procedures as follows:

a. Straight-in landing minimums. A statement of MDA and visibility, or DH and visibility, required for a straight-in landing on a specified runway, or



b. Circling minimums. A statement of MDA and visibility required for the circle-to-land maneuver.



​

Note: Descent below the established MDA or DH is not authorized during an approach unless the aircraft is in a position from which a normal approach to the runway of intended landing can be made and adequate visual reference to required visual cues is maintained.




​

C425Driver