121 pilots vs. 91/135 guys (merged)

[flyguy75000]

121 pilots vs. 91/135 guys

Having been an airline pilot and a 135 pilot with 91 flying, and maybe its just me, but it seems like from many of these posts that there are increasingly unsafe "I'm better than them" attitudes being expressed, mainly by airline and i mean regionals....(have hardly seen it on the majors board) though not always. It's not everyone, but it seems to be increasing. I've only been flying for professionally for 12 years, so I still have a lot to learn from guys like Donsa320 and avbug. But when guys start posting about "those g.a. cowboys" and "now we have to make another check for ice, etc.", the safety level slips even more. Thats our number one priority as professionals, SAFETY. And it seems as if the "safety first" attitude is slowly diminishing in the industry. Not everywhere, not everyone, but i myself have noticed it. Yeah, there are a lot of unsupervised GA cowboys out there, and some manage to live and some don't, taking innocent people with them. But I think one of the reasons GA accidents are on the rise..and will continue, is for a few reasons. There has been a big influx of 121 furloughees into the "little jet" side of aviation, some bringing their "I'm an airline pilot flying a little toy" attitude with them. I'm not trying to knock 121 guys, as I was once one myself, but I have seen this attitude quite a bit recently.

We all have important jobs and safety critical jobs, the guy flying a CRJ700 with 60 people in back has the same responsibility a guy with 5 people in a Lear has.....get his pax to their destination as safely as possible. Its not a pissing contest, mine airplane is bigger than yours, etc. ( Its easy to forget the bottom line when morale is low from mistreatment, but we all have a huge responsibility to the people in back.

And remember to keep a persepective about all aviation accidents...people are losing their lives....and if you let your guard down, it could happen to any of us. I just dont want to see this trend continue. Hopefully I am wrong, but the stats aren't looking that way. Maybe some more experienced guys can shed some light. Fly safe.

 

[rumpletumbler]

It all comes down to the PIC. If you have a bad one you have an unsafe flight.

 

[TurboS7]

I have about 10000 hours flying propeller GA aircraft under all conditons from Alaska to the south in South America. I never got to fly a GA airplane across the pond but I have done my share of NORAD dead reaconing across the water. Flown in and out of all the "extreme" airports in Central and South America. I have done my share of bush flying and beach flying in AK. I have addtionally about 9500 hours of combination GA 135 jet ( Lear jet and Hawker) the rest 121 scheduled and non-sked. I am not trying to toot my horn just giving some background so I can make my point. The GA pilot and aircraft are very much more challenging in the way of weather, terrain, and performance. The 121 becomes more of a challenge with the mindset. If you make a mistake many lives are at stake and many people pay...dearly. You must remember that behind every decision sit 150 to 250 people and their lives are in your hands. Thus, I find that the skill, experience, good and bad, that comes from GA is desperately needed in order for the 121 captain to make that good decision and do the right thing. Usually that means leaning very much to the conservative side of things. I once was asked why I take an extra 2000 lbs of fuel along under certain situations. My reply was." so I have time to think." Thinking is very important and most of the time we tie ourselves up with so many procedures and odities and we forget that this is a chess game, a thinking man's game. That is the diffrence between 121 and 91/135. A 121 pilot has to think, and 91/135 pilot is compelled to just do. Of course in 91/135 there is plenty of time to think between the doing as it takes forever to get anywhere.

 

[100LL... Again!]

There are cowboys everywhere. It's just a little harder to get away with it 121, overall. Not that they don't try...

 

[pilotyip]

121 has much higher training standards, things such as training in a level C or D simulator, 85% check rides, IOE requirements with a check airman, pairing restrictions during the first 75 hours of line operations, consolidation time frame. Mandatory hours for ground school. We do all our DA-20 training at USA Jet under 121 to get a higher level of safety. It is training to a higher standard. It is known quantity, kinda like military time, that is what makes the 121 time stand out to a recruiter

 

[buttercup]

Having been an airline pilot and a 135 pilot with 91 flying, and maybe its just me, but it seems like from many of these posts that there are increasingly unsafe "I'm better than them" attitudes being expressed, mainly by airline and i mean regionals....(have hardly seen it on the majors board) though not always. It's not everyone, but it seems to be increasing. I've only been flying for professionally for 12 years, so I still have a lot to learn from guys like Donsa320 and avbug. But when guys start posting about "those g.a. cowboys" and "now we have to make another check for ice, etc.", the safety level slips even more. Thats our number one priority as professionals, SAFETY. And it seems as if the "safety first" attitude is slowly diminishing in the industry. Not everywhere, not everyone, but i myself have noticed it. Yeah, there are a lot of unsupervised GA cowboys out there, and some manage to live and some don't, taking innocent people with them. But I think one of the reasons GA accidents are on the rise..and will continue, is for a few reasons. There has been a big influx of 121 furloughees into the "little jet" side of aviation, some bringing their "I'm an airline pilot flying a little toy" attitude with them. I'm not trying to knock 121 guys, as I was once one myself, but I have seen this attitude quite a bit recently.

We all have important jobs and safety critical jobs, the guy flying a CRJ700 with 60 people in back has the same responsibility a guy with 5 people in a Lear has.....get his pax to their destination as safely as possible. Its not a pissing contest, mine airplane is bigger than yours, etc. ( Its easy to forget the bottom line when morale is low from mistreatment, but we all have a huge responsibility to the people in back.

And remember to keep a persepective about all aviation accidents...people are losing their lives....and if you let your guard down, it could happen to any of us. I just dont want to see this trend continue. Hopefully I am wrong, but the stats aren't looking that way. Maybe some more experienced guys can shed some light. Fly safe.

I have friends that work on Wall Street that make millions of dollars a year and don't have the ego that pilots do. Next time a pilot gives you crap tell him to look at his paycheck. If that doesnt humble him and shut him up he's a lost cause

 

[Captain Overs]

as214,


Nobody cares.

 

[FN FAL]

It all comes down to the PIC. If you have a bad one you have an unsafe flight.

I heard that.

Low time/low experience pilots have a lot to learn and a license to learn, so you can't fault them there. So you are going to see a lot of issues crop up when you talk about any aspect of aviation when it has to do with lack of experience...regardless of what FARS you fly under.

Then you have the affluent airplane owner that knows everything, just like you have the corporate, charter or airline captain that is dangerously living the life through being a "little tin god".

Over all, there should not really be much of a difference in saftey and out come of flight between the three types of flying; 91/135/121. 91 allows more flexibility, but that doesn't mean it has to be unsafe. 135 ushers in the ops manual, training requirements and a stricter operating environment. 121 moves things up a notch with realeases, licensed dispatching and other regulatory limitations. As far as regimented simulator training...you can get that at all three levels of flying...corporate guys get it, caravan 135 guys get it, airline guys get it...it's the single most valuable thing a flight department can do in striving to foster a culture of safety within the flight department.

But regardless, whether you fly for yourself, a corporation, an air taxi operator or scheduled air carrier...there is no excuse for complacency or niggardly performance of ones duties. We all make mistakes, but good pilots strive to make every flight better than the last...even if they are just bouncing around in a jump plane or trying to log some multi in a rented Apache.

I think you are right, it's up to the PIC...He's/she's the man/woman that makes things happen.

 

[jimpilot]

121 has much higher training standards, things such as training in a level C or D simulator, 85% check rides, IOE requirements with a check airman, pairing restrictions during the first 75 hours of line operations, consolidation time frame. Mandatory hours for ground school. We do all our DA-20 training at USA Jet under 121 to get a higher level of safety. It is training to a higher standard. It is known quantity, kinda like military time, that is what makes the 121 time stand out to a recruiter

Hmm I invite you to Flight Safety or Simuflite to see state of the art level D sims, instructor led Ground Schools and training to the same level as US flag carriers. I am involved in training both 121 and 91/135 pilots and see about the same level of good and bad in the high end jets. I can't speak to the small stuff, but an average Gulfstream/Global pilot is every bit as good as an average 121 flag pilot. GA pilots at this level do every thing a 121 pilot does, and also what his dispatcher and load desk etc does. If anything they often seem more situation aware because they are used to flying into strange airports.

A good PIC is a good PIC. A bad PIC is a bad PIC.

 

[FN FAL]

Hmm I invite you to Flight Safety or Simuflite to see state of the art level D sims, instructor led Ground Schools and training to the same level as US flag carriers. I am involved in training both 121 and 91/135 pilots and see about the same level of good and bad in the high end jets. I can't speak to the small stuff, but an average Gulfstream/Global pilot is every bit as good as an average 121 flag pilot. GA pilots at this level do every thing a 121 pilot does, and also what his dispatcher and load desk etc does. If anything they often seem more situation aware because they are used to flying into strange airports.

A good PIC is a good PIC. A bad PIC is a bad PIC.

I can't wait for my annual 135 sim training in a Level D sim...even the checkride will be fun. I get so stuck in routine, I welcome the experience. Should be down there in a couple of weeks.

 

[jimpilot]

Where you going and which jet?

 

[buttercup]

as214,


Nobody cares.

Nobody cares that you're a Captain. I am too but I don't put it as my user name you ego-tistical pric*!

 

[flyguy75000]

Captain,

It sounds like you possibly have one of those "attitudes" I was referring to.

 

[pilotyip]

True there are 135 and 91 programs out there that match the level found at a 121 air carrier, but there is no consistency. That is why 121 time rates up there with militarty time. It is a known quanity.

 

[AA717driver]

Excellent post Flyguy. Having come from 121 recently there is a lot of latitude in 91. All types of flying gives you enough rope to hang yourself but in 121 you get hanged by getting violated. In 91 the rope can kill you.

I'm not subjected to pushing from ownership or othe pilots but I can see where it can be a factor at some other companies. I would imagine 135 is a particular problem with the drive to keep the customer happy. I would hate to be in that position--you might be inclined to fudge a little more each time until you get into a spot you can't get out of.

Pilots "dissing" each other is nothing new. In the 90's the Legacy pilots wouldn't give the time of day to someone from a "financially troubled" airline. In the 60's the TWA and PanAm people thought their feces didn't stink. Same stuff, different uniform.

Just because I'm lucky to be flying a Gulfstream I shouldn't look down on GLEX pilots... Oops! Sorry. See, no one is immune. TC

 

[Ty Webb]

I can't wait for my annual 135 sim training in a Level D sim...even the checkride will be fun. I get so stuck in routine, I welcome the experience. Should be down there in a couple of weeks.

For clarification . . .since 135 requires PIC's to do a IC or a PC every 6 months, as well as a Line Check once every 12 months . . . . since you said "annual training" does this mean you are going for a SIC check?

Speaking of training- when I was going to FSI for my 6 month training events, we got 8 hours of sim time (if you were paired with someone), plus a checkride, and those 8 hours were put to good use, reviewing Abnormals and Emergencies, in addition to the usual approaches, and let's not forget the circling approaches, which were authorized by my certificate holder.

Seems like in the 121 environment, the emphasis is more on checking, and less on training. I know that is changing somewhat, as carriers progress to continuous training programs.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Many pilots are ego maniacs with small brains. They really think they are doing something special - you know, out there each day putting thier lives on the line, saving the day, etc....all the responsibility, etc....yeah,yeah...

Just read the "W2" thread here...lots of heroes bragging about making 70-80K after 5+ years at thier company...a VERY mediocre wage by most standards today....on top of $hit benefits, lowly wages, instability, etc...these same folks will argue until they are blue in the face that thier airline/airplane/company is THE BEST!!!

I suppose a lot of it has to do with the fact that one need not be overly talented or highly educated to make it as a pilot. One just needs to be persistent...unlike other professions.

(and $hit....anyone with a brain knows that a GLEX is way better than a GULFSTEAM anyhow)

...

 

[TurboS7]

In Part 121 there is no training, either you know how to do it or you don't. If you don't know how to do it you flunk-period. You must learn fast and adjust fast. You have 6 sim periods to get your act together then the checkride. Sink or Swim that is the way it works.

 

[Lead Sled]

Speaking of training- when I was going to FSI for my 6 month training events, we got 8 hours of sim time (if you were paired with someone), plus a checkride, and those 8 hours were put to good use, reviewing Abnormals and Emergencies, in addition to the usual approaches, and let's not forget the circling approaches, which were authorized by my certificate holder...

Seems like in the 121 environment, the emphasis is more on checking, and less on training. I know that is changing somewhat, as carriers progress to continuous training programs.

Ty,
FWIW, I had dinner with an old friend the other night. He is an air carrier inspector and we discussed this very topic. My background includes some 121 experience 20 something years ago, followed by about 15 years of flying jets for a large part 91 corporate operator. During the past couple of years I've been flying an Astra for a private operator here in Socal. We had the Astra on a 135 certificate for a total of 8 months before the owner realized that the only one making out in that situation was the charter company owner. The happiest day of my life was when we finally were able to peel the air taxi certificate number decal off of the airplane. Anyway, back to the original topic...

The first thing that I noticed when we had to put the Astra on 135 was that the quality training that I had become used to while flying part 91 went down the tubes - under part 91 we got a full 3 days in the sim, along with 12 hours of groundschool every six months. Under 135, it was 2 days in the sim practicing for the checkride. The 3rd sim session was the sim check. Under Parts 135 and 121, the minimum training requirements and standards became the goals and once they were met you were out on the line; after all, the airplane is the profit center. Under Part 91, the airplane typically isn't a profit source. As a Part 91 pilot, the company has paid for many "extra-curriculiar" courses such as weather radar training, aerobatics, altitude chamber training, etc. that most charter guys will seldom, if ever, see.

According to my FAA buddy, the 121 operators, lead by United and Delta, have begun implimenting training programs (AQP) similiar to what us 91 guys have had for years - it's about time.

'Sled

 

[VA AV8R]

I flew for a 121 outfit that used AQP. The premise of the program sounds good, but in reality it meant that anytime anyone asked a question, the answer was "This is AQP, you should already know that", and one would go back to reading his/her newspaper.

Having had 121 experience, I wrote a flight standards/SOP manual for my current 91/135 job. I didn't like certain things and thought I could help make a difference. It helps to 'close the gap' somewhat between 91 and 121. If you look at 135 regulations, they're fairly intensive and in depth. One problem is, operators for too long have gotten by with minimal training and have not put standards in place. They talk about CRM, HUPOR, etc. but they won't back it up with action. Most 135 outfits don't have training departments per say either.

Even if you go to FlightSafety, etc., I've never seen any time spent on runway analysis or a lot of time devoted to aircraft performance (outside of sim session briefings). We do all these V1 cuts, handle engine fires, etc. but if you look around there seems to be a few too many aircraft crashing due to not flying proper profiles, improper approach briefs (or lack there of), shooting visuals when its MVFR, and not understanding the effects of runway contamination. And sometimes I've wondered if the scariest manuver for a pilot is the go-around as it seems to be the option of last resort. When's the last time you heard someone "hold short" instead of "we'll wave the wake" (turbulence separation).

All these things happen in the 121 world too, but to a much lesser extend for the reasons people have already discussed.

If you want to fly in a standardized, well structered manner, 135/91 guys may have to do their own study and research whereas 121 pilots have it presented to them from the start. But the material is out there, you just have to be motivated to find it.