121 and Tail End Ferry's

[habubuaza]

I am going to try to keep this simple. I know, that you can legally accept a trip that will put you over the 8 in 24 if that trip is either a tail end ferry (part 91) or you are over 8 hours if it was due to circumstances beyond the control of the company and the flights were scheduled under 8. OK, but if you are scheduled to take a revenue trip and you go back 24 hours prior, doesn't all flight time whether part 91 ferry or not COUNT toward you flight time limits. In other words you had a part 91 repositioning ferry in the "middle" of a 24 hour period. My thoughts are that you look back 24 hours and if you are taking a "revenue trip" then all commercial flying done for the company 91/121 counts for the purposes of flight time limitations.
What do you guys think or know? I couldnt find this example anywhere.
Thanks

 

[Rick1128]

You will not find it in the Regs themselves. You will find it in the 'Letters of Interpretation' issued by FAA legal. Since the 'tail end' ferry (reposition) is not local in nature and provided by the company, it does not qualify as rest. So your rest starts at the end of the reposition flight. And your initial look back is from the scheduled end of the trip. There you must see your required rest.

There are some provisions for reduced rest.

 

[avbug]

I believe habubuaza is asking about flight time limitations, rather than rest limitations. A ferry flight within the prior 24 hour lookback period does count toward your total commercial flying limitation.

 

[SkywayFO]

You can violate the 16 hour of duty rule to do a repo, but it can not take you over 8 hours intentionally. Only if that flight has uncontrollable delays. And yes rest starts 15minutes after block in of the repo, and that flight time counts for you flight time calculations for required rest.

 

[chperplt]

You can violate the 16 hour of duty rule to do a repo, but it can not take you over 8 hours intentionally.

Get back into the books my friend.

A tail end ferry flight is conducted under part 91, and you most certanly can exceed 8 hours of block flying between rest periods for this type of flight.

OK, but if you are scheduled to take a revenue trip and you go back 24 hours prior, doesn't all flight time whether part 91 ferry or not COUNT toward you flight time limits.

Yes, all that time counts toward flight time in a 24 hour period, which is used to figure out what level of rest you are required to meet. You can fly more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period under part 121.. You cannot fly more than 8 hours (with certain exeptions) between rest periods.

 

[habubuaza]

Thanks guys. Actually my company agrees with me.

 

[avbug]

Flychicaga,

You are both right, and wrong. Dutytime cannot be exceeded. Flight time may be exceeded.

In this case, however, 16 hours may be exceeded as a reposition flight is not part of duty time. Rest doesn't start until you're back home or back at the hotel...but a part 91 reposition following the end of a duty period doesn't violate duty time limits, as it is not inclusive of the duty. In other words, a fourteen hour duty assignment that ends with a five hour ferry, hasn't violated anything. The crew makes the five hour ferry under Part 91, not 121. Upon completion of the flight, the crew is still subject to rest requirements which do not begin until that time.

The reposition or ferry delays rest time, but doesn't count against duty time when conducted at the end of a duty period.

Conversely, if the reposition is conducted at the start of the duty time, it's inclusive, and counts agains the duty period. In other words, the duty starts with the reposition.

Flight times may be exceeded, but not duty times.