Those Crazy Sweedish Dash Drivers! (gear collapse)

[The_Russian]

I see several aircraft listed on you're profile, but not a DASH. Are you suggesting that they should have flown a dead stick landing in order to secure the engines? Wow.

Not at all. You secure both of the engines just prior to touchdown. It is the safe and prudent thing to do in a turboprop. DASH in my profile would not make a difference.

 

[The_Russian]

Why secure the engines?

With already one emergency with a gear unsafe situation, why create another one for yourself by fiddling with the engines in the critical approach-to-landing phase?

The reasons would be:

1. To reduce damage to the aircraft, its occupants, and secondary objects.

2. Reduce the chance of fire after the impact or touchdown. Tis pilot made an impact, not a touchdown.

3. To reduce asymetrical forces on the aircraft once skidding.

Surely you guys can see these reasons as appropriate. Correct?

 

[Little Bubba]

Russian,

Maybe you can tell us what the QRH says...

 

[flyburg]

Well Russian,

I think your comments are somewhat unprofessional in my opinion.

First off all, the landing isn't all that hard. I did touch down on the left gear first ( try to make a soft one on the right subsequently)

Secondly, NO turboprop QRH of any of the types I have flown directs the pilots to shutdown engines before landing in a gear malfunction situation but right after landing, as the gear collapse happened almost immediate I think not even the best test pilot( except off course Chuck Norris) could have shut down the engine that fast, let alone feathering times (maybe he already pulled, or pushed, the feathering lever/button but it takes a few seconds for the engine to feather and stop rotating).

Amongst the many, many reasons not to shut down the engines prior to touchdown (some of them already mentioned) I know of one guy that did that once in a Aztec with a nose gear up landing. He almost ran out of runway before he finally touched down due to the sudden loss of drag.

Once again, I know of no airplanes where the QRH requires you to shut down one or both engines in case of a none engine related failure of any kind. They do however say, space permitting to reseat passengers away from the seat directly adjacent to the prop, and besides that most TP have the hull reenforced right next to the props (in case of ice shedding, have to admit don't know if that is enough to also protect against a prop)

Qurious, what does the b1900 QRH say on the subject??

Makes me wonder, had the guys taken their own iniative and shut down the engine, this thread would have ondoubtly been about foreign substandard training and guys not following procedures, Njet

 

[The_Russian]

I think your comments are somewhat unprofessional in my opinion.

Sure you do. Try to look at this objectively.

First off all, the landing isn't all that hard. I did touch down on the left gear first ( try to make a soft one on the right subsequently)

For a precautionary landing with an unsafe gear indication it is!

Secondly, NO turboprop QRH of any of the types I have flown directs the pilots to shutdown engines before landing in a gear malfunction situation but right after landing, as the gear collapse happened almost immediate I think not even the best test pilot( except off course Chuck Norris) could have shut down the engine that fast, let alone feathering times (maybe he already pulled, or pushed, the feathering lever/button but it takes a few seconds for the engine to feather and stop roatating).

Both turboprop QRH's I have dealt with recommend securing the engines just prior to touchdown. Even if your QRH doesn't say to, it is a very smart and safe thing to do.

The pilots were not suprised by anything. They knew this was coming after the first extension. Even if the prop doesn't feather fast, at least it is not making impact at its greatest RPM. A bent prop is a lot better than a fragmented prop. Fragments enter people. Remember that I am talking about both engines, in the flare.

Amongst the many, many reasons not to shut down the engines prior to touchdown (some of them already mentioned) I know of one guy that did that once in a Aztec with a nose gear up landing. He almost ran out of runway before he finally touched down due to the sudden loss of drag.

Poor planning on his part.

Once again, I know of no airplanes where the QRH requires you to shut down one or both engines in case of a none engine related failure of any kind.

See above.

Qurious, what does the b1900 QRH say on the subject??

I'll refer to it when I get home. Haven't flown that one in a while.

Makes me wonder, had the guys taken their own iniative and shut down the engine, this thread would have ondoubtly have been about foreign substandard training and guys not following procedures, Njet

If an airline does not specify touchdown procedures, then how will the pilots know how to land with an unsafe gear? Obviously, their QRH recommends to slam it in and turn uncontrollably to the right sending prop pieces everywhere. Every QRH I have read has recommendations. These include soft touchdown, securing engines, and using ailerons to reduce impact to the affected wing.

As you can see in this case, the pilot did not touch down softly. The gear began to collapse as the aircraft's right prop struck the runway. Most likely the crew was distracted by the explosion, and lost any control they had of the aircraft prior to this. Luckily, no pax were killed by the flying debris.

 

[Quimby]

Let's see....

Both engines should have been secured prior to touchdown. This is not only for the safety of the passengers, but to reduce damge to the aircraft.

and,

The landing was made with poor technique, allowing the aircraft to contact the runway extremely hard. Much harder than should be considered for an unsafe gear situation.

I hate to say it myself, but it was a botched job. That aircraft could have been landed on the centerline with minimal damage. Instead, it took a hard right after an uncontrolled touchdown and departed the runway.

what's the number on your monday morning q-back jersey?

 

[The_Russian]

what's the number on your monday morning q-back jersey?

I wear #15.

Enjoy the discussion.

 

[Wiggums]

Russian, can you consistently grease it on? Under pressure? Even if they had made a better landing would it have mattered? Once the spoilers came up the gear would have probably collapsed anyways.

If you shut down the engines in the flare you are relying on a whole bunch of backup systems in an aircraft that already has problems. If the gear didn't collapse now you have to rely on backup hyd for braking and steering? What about the spoilers, will they work on backup hyd? Does the PA or radios work with no engines or APU running?

Why would you operate outside of the QRH? What at your company allows to make up your own procedures in an emergency?

 

[The_Russian]

Russian, can you consistently grease it on? Under pressure?

Yep, I have the Channel 7 news video to prove it.

Even if they had made a better landing would it have mattered? Once the spoilers came up the gear would have probably collapsed anyways.

Are you saying they cant disable the spoilers? Either way, that is their decision to meet the needs of the situation. The gear collapsing is not the problem here. The problem is the fragmenting prop and the complete loss of control.

If you shut down the engines in the flare you are relying on a whole bunch of backup systems in an aircraft that already has problems. If the gear didn't collapse now you have to rely on backup hyd for braking and steering? What about the spoilers, will they work on backup hyd? Does the PA or radios work with no engines or APU running?

Set up the hydraulics to run on APU or battery power. Same with the PA. The gear has overcenter lock and will hold on the respective gear if you have a green light. Once again the problem is damage, fire, and injury. Not the other systems.

Why would you operate outside of the QRH? What at your company allows to make up your own procedures in an emergency?

I wouldn't be. Even if I was, I can do what is nessecary to meet the extent of the emergency.

 

[flyburg]

Well, I guess your entitled to your opinion. I think I see almost all things differently than you.

I think the touchdown isn't all that hard, you think it is, who's right? etc, etc

I am curious though, you say both turboprops you flew recommended the engines to be shut down prior to touchdown but a little later you admit you have to check the beech 1900 as you haven't flown it for a while.

I gotta admit, I haven't flown the J31 and saab for a long time but I know for a fact that the Fokker 50 QRH directs you to shut down the engines immediatetely after touchdown, and as far as the SF340 and J31, I'm pretty sure they are the same.

Enough of this for me though, who cares, every time there is an accident, somebody feels the need to start critisizing and give opinions on how they would have done it differently...good luck with that.

Allready regret having even responded!