Best modern trainer?

[CelticCitation]

Looking to replace our fleet of 25 year old C-172s with more modern, or at least newer aircraft. What aircraft would those of you in the flight training world recommend? Mostly primary instruction and instrument ratings. Based at nearly 5000 msl airport.

 

[Medicryan]

Piper!!!

 

[minitour]

The new DA40s coming out have lots of neat stuff...G1000, 195 ponies, improved winglets.

Cirrus are fun, although I've got no SR22 time...just SR20...still fun.

Skylane?

I don't know what you're trying to upgrade...is it just an avionics upgrade you want or......speed? Range? Useful Load?

If you just want new paint and avionics and interior, go with the 172SP...G1000, leather, bla bla bla. Good airplane and has been for a while.

If you want something that'll git on ya...I'd go with Diamond. Maybe stick your private students in the DA20 (now spin approved) 2-seaters that burn around 6GPH (152 burns) at 120 knots. That's no joke on 120 knots...I flew back from London to the states along side one, he was pulled back quite a bit and I was wide open (172) and...it wasn't even close when he pushed the RPM up to the same setting.

Toss your instrument students into a DA40 w/ the G1000.....

That would probably be my personal preference...in fact, if we can get the funds secured we're going all Diamond to include a twinstar or two.

If you have any questions on them, drop me a PM...I've got plenty of diamond time and can probably get 'em at a good price for you as I know the dealer fairly well.

-mini

-

 

[jcpilot]

I agree with the guy who recommended Diamond.

My flight school at Utah State University just replaced their 152s and 172s with DA-40s. Pretty sweet airplanes; G1000, TIS, XM Weather, etc... We also replaced our 50 year old Beech Travelairs with Twin Stars. Beware, though. According to our local FSDO, the Twin Star doesn't qualify as complex, due to the ECU controlling prop pitch. This may change in the future, though. So, we're keeping our Piper Arrows for now for commercial students.

 

[paulsalem]

I'd stay away from the 172R and SP, the interiors are built like crap, plus there are some known engine stumbling issues that remain uncorrected.

Please don't go with glass/EFIS instruments.

 

[CelticCitation]

Thanks for the replys. See Katanas everywhere, and figured there must be a reason. Anyone have reliability issues, support etc.? What are the gotchas to watch for with the diamonds?

I am planning on having them bring a demo after the AOPA convention, but until then, how does a DA-20 fit two larger pilots? One of our CFIs is 6'4", another 270 lbs. Could we put both of them in the same airplane?

 

[Pilot Doc]

Have you considered any of the LSAs? $70K-100K/plane. I'm not sure if any are approved for IFR but they can certainly be outfitted for instrument training. They generally burn 4GPH as well.

The Flight Design CT, which seems to be leading the market now, has a 670 lb useful load. With 20 gallons on board (almost 5 hours fuel) that gives you room for a 270 lb instructor and up to 280 lb of student.

 

[Lazy8]

The LSA's are going to be the way to go for Private training. Cessna's will probably go into production next year and it will be less than $100k brand new. The panel is slated to be LCD displays that show a six-pack. You won't be able to do instrument flying in them, but I think they're going to be awesome for Private training. I would imagine the rental rate would be around $70-$80/hour, which is exactly what this industry needs again - more affordable flight training in new aircraft.

I've been flying 172SP's and R's for 4 years and I've never had an "engine stumbling" problem that paulsalem mentioned. IO-360's aren't the smoothest running engines in the world, but they're very reliable. The interiors are no better or worse than new Pipers or Diamonds. They all have their quirks. For me, I don't think there has ever been a better training aircraft out there than the C152 and C172. They're built tough as nails, they're easy to fly, and no other GA aircraft manufacturer comes close the Cessna's support network.

I've got quite a bit of time in a DA20-C1 Eclipse too. They're good airplanes, but they don't seem to hold up as well in the training environment. Also, if you're in an area where it gets really cold, they accumulate frost on the wings much faster than aluminum planes. I don't know the reason for this. It's not a comfortable airplane for larger people and the CG range is quite narrow. It's a good plane, but it's not something I would want to fill up a flight-line with. It's more of a weekend warrior aircraft.

g

 

[CelticCitation]

LSA's

LSA's are probably another good idea. Anybody talked to an insurance company about rates for Light Sport rates? I wonder if they are comparable to traditional instruction activities?

 

[Pilot Doc]

LSA's are probably another good idea. Anybody talked to an insurance company about rates for Light Sport rates? I wonder if they are comparable to traditional instruction activities?

talk to www.stcharlesflyingsvs.com

They're a busy 141 school that has had 2 LSA for 18 months.

 

[ParrotheadGTI]

diamonds are amazing aircraft.. so easy to fly..

 

[LearLove]

whats wrong with older 172's or Pipers? Take care of them - wash/wax and clean inside after lesson and theres nothig else to do except chage the oil. Most flight schools, CFI and their students just don't respect the aircraft thus they get run down and everyone wants to replace what doesn't need to be replaced.

The only advantage of newer is the glass but we really don't need this. Just a standard 6 pack and some pilotage skills will do fine for a PVT guy which he she can back up with a GPS after they learn the basics.

 

[Goose Egg]

I have a few hours in the DA-20 (like 30-ish... got my IFR rating) and I was really quite impressed. Not only do they sip fuel and go fast, but they also soar up to 13,999' MSL with the power at idle with some good lift.

I've got a few more hours (like 800-ish) in the C-172R, and it's a very good airplane. I've got no complaints.

-Goose

 

[LearLove]

nice pic goose, cross rules - of all the racing I did as a junior I miss the track (t-town) and cross the most.

 

[CelticCitation]

I agree that from a training perspective, there is nothing wrong with older airplanes, and in fact, some of the skills of operating them will be lost, but from a business perspective, we're losing business to the big schools, who operate newer equipment. Also, operating costs of older aircraft make it difficult to ever upgrade them, as it does very little to raise their value, yet they still cost a bunch to maintain.

 

[kf4amu]

Diamonds blow Cessnas out of the water. Whoever said large people dont fit in the DA20 certainly hasnt flown a 172. Step over the landing gear, contort sideways to get in front of the seat that wont slide back far enough for "safety" reasons...UGH 172's are pieces of crap. My Geo Metro has a better interior.

Plus there is no reason to have a 4 seat aircraft when only 2 seats are being occupied 99 percent of the time. What a waste of money.

 

[Lazy8]

Diamonds blow Cessnas out of the water. Whoever said large people dont fit in the DA20 certainly hasnt flown a 172. Step over the landing gear, contort sideways to get in front of the seat that wont slide back far enough for "safety" reasons...UGH 172's are pieces of crap. My Geo Metro has a better interior.

Plus there is no reason to have a 4 seat aircraft when only 2 seats are being occupied 99 percent of the time. What a waste of money.

Is that why more people have done their flight training in Cessnas than any other single-engine aircraft worldwide? hmm

It's definitely no easier to gracefully maneuver yourself into a DA20 seat. (Especially if you're a larger person)

If your flight school has crappy 172's on the flight line, maybe you should inquire to the owners as to why they aren't maintaining them properly. You should always be flying in the best available equipment (new or old) because that's what you're paying for. Any aircraft, Diamond included, will look and operate badly if the owner doesn't take proper care of it.

g

 

[icefr8dawg]

Why are you replacing the 172's? Are they timing out structurally or you just want a more modern fleet. Just my .02 but we got by on several old 172's and a couple taildraggers from the 40's, kept rates low and always made money.

 

[kf4amu]

Is that why more people have done their flight training in Cessnas than any other single-engine aircraft worldwide? hmm

If Geo Metro's were the only vehicle in the world that got good gas mileage, everyone would drive Geo Metro's if they wanted good gas mileage, even though they suck. Then Honda comes out with the Civic and it blows the Metro's away with fit finish and quality, and people say "well more people drove Metro's so they must be better!". Doesnt work that way.

"Lack of a better option" does not equal "good product".

Now that we have better options, people need to realize inefficient airframes like 172's are on the way out.

As to getting in an out, Im not a large person, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how it would be hard for someone to drop their fatass into a Diamond seat. The whole damn top tilts back and there is nothing in the way when you get in. In a Cessna you have a strut, a floorboard to step over, and a seat that give you approximately 6 inches between the A pillar and the seat cushion to put your legs through. How is that more conducive to fat people than one you just drop down on like a roller coaster seat?

 

[duckquacker30]

DA-20 and DA-40

Diamond all the way!

For the safety record, combined with obedient and predictable flight characteristics, not to mention to insurance and fuel costs, these things are the way to go. Our flight school has three of the 20's and two 40's with G1000's. One of the 40's is the XL with the G1000 integrated AP and active traffic.

Flown the twinstar as well and loved it. I think something like a Seminole is probably a better trainer (less forgiving), but the liquid cooled, Jet-A sipping diesel in the twinstar is pretty slick.

As for student/cfi size limitations. The DA-20 is more roomy than a 150, but has less room than a 172. The DA-40 is comparable to the 172, but is in my opinion much nicer to fly. The visibility in the Diamonds is one of the greatest selling points to me.

I am 6'0" and 240 lbs, and I am currently training a student in the 20 that is nearly my same size. We can't go do training with a full tank, but we're within weight and balance on slightly lower than half tank.

DIAMOND, DIAMOND, DIAMOND!!!