Age 60 Rule - please answer this PRO-camp

[satpak77]

I hear how Age 60 is "age discrimination". Then 2 seconds later I hear how it should be changed to Age 65.

PLEASE TELL ME how the age discrimination argument to Age 60 is magically nullied if the rule is changed to Age 65?

HELP ME UNDERSTAND THIS

 

[PTinbound]

I think age 65 is still discrimination, but it's a step in the right direction.

 

[General Lee]

I think age 65 is still discrimination, but it's a step in the right direction.

Let me guess? You are an ex military type who got to SWA late in life and now you are behind in your 401K? Did you not know the rules when you came over to SWA? How old was the Captain of that 737 that went off the runway at MDW? I'll tell you----59. He quickly retired after the accident.

What do you think about lowering the driving age? Nebraska and Kansas allow kids age 14 to get their license. Do you favor that for every state? Europe allows kids to drink beer. Do you think we should follow their lead, just like we should follow ICAO's lead with age 65? (even though it is because of LCC expansion in Europe and a shortage of pilots) Are you a follower? Did you know the constitution has age discrimination? It states a MINIMUM age for President of the United States. Is that wrong? Do you want to rewrite the Constitution?

Please answer the questions.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Let me guess? You are an ex military type who got to SWA late in life and now you are behind in your 401K? Did you not know the rules when you came over to SWA? How old was the Captain of that 737 that went off the runway at MDW? I'll tell you----59. He quickly retired after the accident.

What do you think about lowering the driving age? Nebraska and Kansas allow kids age 14 to get their license. Do you favor that for every state? Europe allows kids to drink beer. Do you think we should follow their lead, just like we should follow ICAO's lead with age 65? (even though it is because of LCC expansion in Europe and a shortage of pilots) Are you a follower? Did you know the constitution has age discrimination? It states a MINIMUM age for President of the United States. Is that wrong? Do you want to rewrite the Constitution?

Please answer the questions.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You should be ashamed at your attempt to link this Captain's age to the cause of the accident. You are unable to come up with factual data to support the age 60 rule so you through this grenade. You must not have been in this business very long if you think that you know the cause of this accident based on the information currently available. Comments like this eliminate any credibility that you had left.

You claim to speak for all airline pilots with your "we all know" statements. You claim that everyone that is pro change is old and needs the money. Wrong again.

 

[pipe]

You should be ashamed at your attempt to link this Captain's age to the cause of the accident. You are unable to come up with factual data to support the age 60 rule so you through this grenade. You must not have been in this business very long if you think that you know the cause of this accident based on the information currently available. Comments like this eliminate any credibility that you had left.

You claim to speak for all airline pilots with your "we all know" statements. You claim that everyone that is pro change is old and needs the money. Wrong again.

Don't be ashamed. If the Capt had been 35 it would surely have been chalked up to lack of experience. BTW, wasn't it the FO who finally got the reversers deployed?

PIPE

 

[General Lee]

You should be ashamed at your attempt to link this Captain's age to the cause of the accident. You are unable to come up with factual data to support the age 60 rule so you through this grenade. You must not have been in this business very long if you think that you know the cause of this accident based on the information currently available. Comments like this eliminate any credibility that you had left.

You claim to speak for all airline pilots with your "we all know" statements. You claim that everyone that is pro change is old and needs the money. Wrong again.

Hey, you can't argue with the facts. Decision making is important, and age can be a factor. You never know. And, even the Southwest guys, if there was a vote today, would probably vote against it, thanks to you hiring over 1500 in the past couple years. They want to upgrade and want you to leave.

You never did answer my questions about under age driving, and underage drinking in Europe. Should we change those rules because Europe has or because we have 14 year olds in Kansas driving? Should we? You can't even debate me. This isn't a political ad---debate the facts.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I hear how Age 60 is "age discrimination". Then 2 seconds later I hear how it should be changed to Age 65.

PLEASE TELL ME how the age discrimination argument to Age 60 is magically nullied if the rule is changed to Age 65?

HELP ME UNDERSTAND THIS

You are absolutely correct. 65 will indeed be discrimination, but to a lesser extent (IMO). More pilots will likely retire on their own terms before reaching 65. Example: 10% of the current able pilots retire prior to reaching 60, so the rule discriminates against 90%. If between age 60 and 65, 70% of the remaining pilots go out on their own terms, the "65 rule" would discriminate against the remaining 30% (27% of the original group).

 

[flyingitalian]

I personally have a love hate relationship with age 60 because Im in the right seat. When I arrive in the left seat I will love age 60, right now I hate it. That said, I have to look at this logically. When age 60 was enacted there were winners and losers, and when its changed there will be winners and losers. American did not want to pay its senior pilots, and viola age 60. Like so much other legistaion its influence and who has it. After age 60 unions made it nice to retire at 60, but economics have changed and its no longer nice to retire at 60 on $2500 something a month the Pension guarentee board pays you. More pilots who want the change have influence, and here comes the international community with 65. Look its going to change, and when it does there will be a new age for discrimination and since I cant collect anything until 67 its still discrimination. General you are really not being honest, its not just europe its the entire world except for four contries, and not really economic powerhouses at that except for us.

Its going to change and that is that. My prediction is November 22nd.

 

[AAflyer]

You are absolutely correct. 65 will indeed be discrimination, but to a lesser extent (IMO). More pilots will likely retire on their own terms before reaching 65. Example: 10% of the current able pilots retire prior to reaching 60, so the rule discriminates against 90%. If between age 60 and 65, 70% of the remaining pilots go out on their own terms, the "65 rule" would discriminate against the remaining 30% (27% of the original group).

Age discrimination to a lesser extent? WTF is that? Is that like getting a little bit pregnant?


AA

 

[SWA/FO]

Let me guess? You are an ex military type who got to SWA late in life and now you are behind in your 401K? Did you not know the rules when you came over to SWA? How old was the Captain of that 737 that went off the runway at MDW? I'll tell you----59. He quickly retired after the accident.

Shot a good approach was on speed and landed in the zone, just didn't turn out so good. Just like those folks landing at DFW with a storm near by (windshear). How old were those guys?

 

[General Lee]

I personally have a love hate relationship with age 60 because Im in the right seat. When I arrive in the left seat I will love age 60, right now I hate it. That said, I have to look at this logically. When age 60 was enacted there were winners and losers, and when its changed there will be winners and losers. American did not want to pay its senior pilots, and viola age 60. Like so much other legistaion its influence and who has it. After age 60 unions made it nice to retire at 60, but economics have changed and its no longer nice to retire at 60 on $2500 something a month the Pension guarentee board pays you. More pilots who want the change have influence, and here comes the international community with 65. Look its going to change, and when it does there will be a new age for discrimination and since I cant collect anything until 67 its still discrimination. General you are really not being honest, its not just europe its the entire world except for four contries, and not really economic powerhouses at that except for us.

Its going to change and that is that. My prediction is November 22nd.

Economics have changed? So, when we have another stock market crash we should go to age 67? We have had many economic challenges in the past, and we have never changed any rules. If we get our pensions reinstated or compensated for in the future, should we then revert back to age 60? Ridiculous.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Shot a good approach was on speed and landed in the zone, just didn't turn out so good. Just like those folks landing at DFW with a storm near by (windshear). How old were those guys?

They were very old and senior--the L1011 was the senior plane back then. Tough decisions were made at both accidents. And, many of those Southwest flights diverted that night at MDW. Did you see the snowfall on TV that night at MDW? Crazy night.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Hey, you can't argue with the facts. Decision making is important, and age can be a factor. You never know. And, even the Southwest guys, if there was a vote today, would probably vote against it, thanks to you hiring over 1500 in the past couple years. They want to upgrade and want you to leave.

You never did answer my questions about under age driving, and underage drinking in Europe. Should we change those rules because Europe has or because we have 14 year olds in Kansas driving? Should we? You can't even debate me. This isn't a political ad---debate the facts.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Even though they have absolutely nothing to do with changing the rule, my answer is no. We should not change our rules based on something that has zilch to do with this (I believe that I have stated this several times). if those rules were enacted based upon good, well-thought out reasons, they are likely okay. I am still waiting for you to debate any facts to support the rule at 60. Tell us how this rule was enacted in the interest of safety.

BTW, SWAPA surveyed this question as recently as ten days ago.

 

[satpak77]

Age discrimination to a lesser extent? WTF is that? Is that like getting a little bit pregnant?


AA

I am gonna back up AA on this one, the courts will not recognize "to a lesser extent". By the way, how is it to a "lesser extent?" Is it because you are given that many more years to retire?

This is the mindset which I find incredible. Go to the DOT comment site, and you will see 500 or more "Its not fair, its age discrimination" blah blah comments, but no facts to support this. Guys have signed their name "Captain Over, 23,000 hours of accident free time" blah blah ad nauseum. Same person will request age is raised to 65. Uh?????

I am still waiting for a logical, bonafide argument why Age 65 is NOT Age Discrimination and Age 60 is.

Waiting....

 

[SWA/FO]

Did you see the snowfall on TV that night at MDW? Crazy night.

yes it was coming down.

 

[satpak77]

this is not a SWA at Midway, DAL at DFW, AA in Cali, Valujet in Glades, CAL in Newark, United at Sioux City, thread

FYI guys

thanks

 

[Double Shot]

BTW, SWAPA surveyed this question as recently as ten days ago.[/quote]


When they polled me I asked for a re-vote. Lets see if they listen.

 

[Flopgut]

I think age 65 is still discrimination, but it's a step in the right direction.

It's a step, I don't know about what direction. I'm assuming most of you want a raise in the coming years just like I do. Mgts are going to respond to our desire for raises with: "you just got a huge raise, you can work to 65! BTW I guess you won't be needing a B fund now!" This isn't organic growth, this is NOT "new meat". This is a weak idea and a poor solution that is only going to come back and bite us. More to the point of the thread: Of course 65 is still discrimination! The pro change crowd is coming right back at us with age 70!

 

[bestpilot]

Duuuuuudes!!!!!

I gotsa ta be flyin wit da Tranny wehn I'm like 100.

Dudes, like ole Betty be sayin dat dem two pilot cats gots a combined 160 years o flyin experience betweens da 2 a dem. Da Peeps willl be diggin dat!!!

Ethel, gimmmie my teeth, I gots to go flyin!!!


AWWWWW YEAAAHHHH!!!!

 

[Chest Rockwell]

BTW, SWAPA surveyed this question as recently as ten days ago.

When they polled me I asked for a re-vote. Lets see if they listen.[/quote]

If enough respond as you did, a re-vote is in order.

 

[Bake]

General, you want to debate facts but really what you want to do is bash people who don't agree with you just the same as the pro 65 crowd does. You scream SAFETY and they scream DISCRIMINATION. Come on it is really neither for either side. It's all about MONEY, always has been and that ain't gonna change. They want more and you want more it is really that simple. So now that we know what it is really about it is time to play the game. The game is politics and you and the pro 60 group are losing. The pro 65 group is working harder, paying more money to the pigs in Washington, and lobbying like crazy to get it done.

Safety and discrimination is merely the lipstick you and they are painting on the pigs.

Bake

 

[MalteseX]

I hear how Age 60 is "age discrimination". Then 2 seconds later I hear how it should be changed to Age 65.

PLEASE TELL ME how the age discrimination argument to Age 60 is magically nullied if the rule is changed to Age 65?

HELP ME UNDERSTAND THIS

I think you have a good point. If a mandatory retirement of age 60 is "age discrimination", then so is a mandatory retirement for age 65, and so is age 70 etc.

 

[MalteseX]

deleted

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

ANY age limit is discrimination, and should be abolished.

Also, since the age limit won't be changed tommorrow, the Medicaire/SocSec ages should be changed to match the forced retirement age of us pilots.

cliff
LRD

 

[Andy Neill]

I have looked at data that indicates that an age 60 limit is justified because the accident rate rises above that. I have looked at data that says while the accident rate for a pilot at 62 is higher than at 61, it it still lower than 59. The difference between the two studies is that the first considers all pilots over 60 in 121 and 135 flying against all pilots under 60 in 121 flying. Since 135 flying has a higher rate than 121, it should be no surprise the rate for 60 and over would be higher.

The second sets of studies compares all pilots in 135 flying over 60 against all pilots in 135 flying under 60. Even 65 year old pilots have accident rates comparable to age 59 pilots.

So looking at discrimination AND safety, I think it would be justifiable to raise the age to 65. I can understand those who say this is discrimination but to a lesser degree because there are fewer pilots who would WANT to fly past 65 and at 65 they have more options as to income supplement (Social Security) and medical coverage (Medicare).

I have heard arguments suggesting a phased in approach (adding one year limit every 2 years until the target is reached) and I can support that. I have no dog in this one, but both my Senators have agreed to support the move.

 

[walkthasky]

Age discrimination to a lesser extent? WTF is that? Is that like getting a little bit pregnant?


AA

thats pretty funny

 

[Spooky 2]

Let me guess? You are an ex military type who got to SWA late in life and now you are behind in your 401K? Did you not know the rules when you came over to SWA? How old was the Captain of that 737 that went off the runway at MDW? I'll tell you----59. He quickly retired after the accident.

What do you think about lowering the driving age? Nebraska and Kansas allow kids age 14 to get their license. Do you favor that for every state? Europe allows kids to drink beer. Do you think we should follow their lead, just like we should follow ICAO's lead with age 65? (even though it is because of LCC expansion in Europe and a shortage of pilots) Are you a follower? Did you know the constitution has age discrimination? It states a MINIMUM age for President of the United States. Is that wrong? Do you want to rewrite the Constitution?

Please answer the questions.


Bye Bye--General Lee

As usual General, your logic is flawed. That would be like me asking how old was the CAL Capt. that landed on the taxiway, or the Comair pilits who took off on the wrong runway. You are ging down a very slippery slope with this train of thought, IMO.

 

[Andy]

The second sets of studies compares all pilots in 135 flying over 60 against all pilots in 135 flying under 60. Even 65 year old pilots have accident rates comparable to age 59 pilots.

Please post the data. If they are using number of pilots per accident in an age bracket, perhaps. All data that I've seen using accidents per 100,000 flt hours shows an increase after age 55.

 

[Andy]

That would be like me asking how old was the CAL Capt. that landed on the taxiway, or the Comair pilits who took off on the wrong runway. You are ging down a very slippery slope with this train of thought, IMO.

Spooky, I agree with you on the specifics. Better to deal with numbers of accidents per 100,000 flt hours in each age group.

 

[flyingitalian]

Economics have changed? So, when we have another stock market crash we should go to age 67? We have had many economic challenges in the past, and we have never changed any rules. If we get our pensions reinstated or compensated for in the future, should we then revert back to age 60? Ridiculous.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Your missing the point. The stock market is not crashed, the economy is not bad, the economics of those with influence have changed and they want the rule changed. Guess what? The rule is going to change like it or not, its just a matter of when and how they change it, but its gonna change and its gonig to suck for those of us in the right seat especially at carrier not growing. Its simply a matter of greed on both sides, are your willing to admit that?