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Just wait till they start this over here!

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TheGuat

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2004
Posts
128
SAA's controversial plan to get co-pilots flying
September 16, 2006 Edition 1, Saturday Star

Sheena Adams

South African Airways is on the brink of introducing a radical new pilot training programme, which will see trainees taking their place as co-pilots after 70 hours actual flying time.

The bulk of the training - 250 hours - will take place in flight simulators, which allows trainers to slash actual flying hours in a real aircraft by more than half. SAA spokesperson Jacqui O'Sullivan has confirmed the details of the new programme.

The cost-cutting initiative is part of efforts by the national carrier to introduce more black people into it's pilot ranks.

Called a Multi-Crew Pilot Licence (MPL), the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) is currently drawing up programme standards and regulations, which could be ready in mid-2007, according to Captain Colin Jordaan, general manager of SAA's flight operations.

However, pilot associations around the world, including the Airline Pilots Association of South Africa (Alpa-SA), do not support the MPL, saying the safety of passengers will be compromised.

Jordaan said in an interview this week that the initiative would fast-track the num-ber of black pilots employed by the national carrier. At present, the airline employs just 66 black men and women pilots out of a total of 796.

SAA's target, introduced in 1996, was to have 300 black pilots by last year.

Jordaan said the new type of licence would be "a heck of a lot cheaper" to imple-ment than the airline's cadet school, which costs SAA R750 000 per person for the intensive 18-month course.

SAA already owns four simulators required for the new training and would thus only be paying for electricity and maintenance costs, he added.

Jordaan said the airline was intrinsically involved in the ICAO steering group drawing up the MPL regulations and that information was fed regularly to the South African Qualifications Authority to ensure that the programme, when implemented, would comply with the country's training regulations.

"We will be able to take a person off the street and train them in our simulators for between 12 and 18 months.

"They will then be able to move into the right-hand seat of a Boeing 747 as co-pilot," Jordaan said.


He said the course would be designed specifically for airline flying and would not devote any time to "unnecessary aspects" such as using topographical maps.

The course would entail just 70 hours of flying time in a real aircraft as opposed to the 200 flying hours required in order to get a commercial pilot's licence.

MPL graduates would only be able to fly in a "multi-crew environment" for the first few years, he added.

Opposition to the plan has been widespread, with organisations such as the European Cockpit Association (ECA), representing 29 professional pilots' associations, saying that the MPL risks downgrading the standards of commercial flight training when aircraft are becoming increasingly complex and when air traffic is expected to rise substantially over the coming years.

"Downgrading of these standards can not be accepted in an industry that relies on a permanently increasing safety profile and which faces numerous challenges over the coming years," the ECA said.

Alpa-SA president Harvey van Rooyen said he was concerned that while simulations could be useful, weather patterns such as storms could not be simulated.

The new licence was "obviously about costs" and Alpa-SA did not believe that 18-year-olds off the street would be able to handle intensive pilot training.

More thought should be given to taking in university graduates who were PC literate and had certain "technical advantages", said Van Rooyen.

"It is a little bit of a leap forward and people are just assuming it will work but I have my reservations. Flying is not monkey see, monkey do. You need to create people who can think under pressure.

"You can't pluck a rabbit out of a hat and then say: 'There you go! Transformation has been sorted out'," he said.

Jordaan brushed off claims that SAA's programme would compromise aviation safety. He said today's aircraft design and training programmes placed emphasis on co-operation between crew members unlike "in the old days when all the decisions were made by the captain".

Co-pilots would spend 10 years in the right-hand seat of aircraft before attaining commander status, he added.
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Airline pilots trained from the get go could have better habits than poorly trained pilots from a puppy mill. Actually I would rather see the airlines fit the bill for training than the individual. However the FO may become a no-pay seat eventually....oh wait.
 
nah, they'll be ok. What with all the automation on board aircraft today, we're really just "Flight Deck Monitors"
 
That has worked for years in the rest of the world. It is called "Ab Initio" I know for a fact that BA, Emirates and Aer Lingus all use this type of training. They hire people who want to be pilots, thier first assignment with the airline? Learn how to fly. The above mentioned airlines use around 270 hours in single and multi, next came a jet orientation in the sims then the specfic sim for what your were assigned BA put the new hires in the A320 or B737. Sim for a while then IOE and then cut loose.

Also I'm pretty sure our Military uses a simmilar system. The less flying time you have the better off you are when applying to the Military for a flying job.
 
This will dovetail perfectly with the ICAO rule that says a CA over 60 must be accompanied by a puppy in the right seat. We'd have Gramps at 64 and "The Beav", a 19 yr old FO, executing steep arcing approaches in bad Himalayan wx.
 
Mike Oxlong said:
That has worked for years in the rest of the world. It is called "Ab Initio" I know for a fact that BA, Emirates and Aer Lingus all use this type of training. They hire people who want to be pilots, thier first assignment with the airline? Learn how to fly. The above mentioned airlines use around 270 hours in single and multi, next came a jet orientation in the sims then the specfic sim for what your were assigned BA put the new hires in the A320 or B737. Sim for a while then IOE and then cut loose.

Also I'm pretty sure our Military uses a simmilar system. The less flying time you have the better off you are when applying to the Military for a flying job.

You beat me to it. The UK has been doing this forever as well as other nations. The US military does the same thing. New fighter pilots have less than 300 hours when they are given command of their single seat jet. The US airline market is flooded with people willing to spend their own money, so why would an airline want to invest?
 
Gorilla said:
This will dovetail perfectly with the ICAO rule that says a CA over 60 must be accompanied by a puppy in the right seat. We'd have Gramps at 64 and "The Beav", a 19 yr old FO, executing steep arcing approaches in bad Himalayan wx.


Now this maneuver might be a bit 'over the top' for you in your Seminole, but with today's Transport Category Aircrafts (B7-400, A340/320, etc.), it's not even an after thought!

And yes, BA and many other European Airlines have been doing this for years...let's say at least 20 years (if you're still too busy watching Fox and are not aware of what else is going on in the world).

Besides, flying a 747-400 or A340/320 is NOT a BIT more complex than flying a CRJ...so who cares...what gets under your skin is not the big planes, but the pilots without many hours flying those big planes...when folks like you have to wait...oh...many thousands of hours of 121 flying even to have a shot at the interview to fly those planes, sin't it?

Get over it people.

You have many hundreds of these pilots flying in to US every day on a 747-400s. Prime example is China Airlines and many other Asian Airlines with B777 F/Os as young as 21 years. Now I am sure this will sure get under your skin.

Move on, poeple, MOVE ON!
 
All part of the grwoing world wide pilot shortage, that will soon be coming to North America, ties in to the hiring boom starting next year around June
 
DirkkDiggler said:
Name one airline accident where a low time F/O cost a passenger their life.

Gulf Air Airbus crash circa 2000 in Bahrain.

F/O had 410 total time... 200 of that through his ab-initio training, and 210 on the Airbus A320.

Don't know who was pilot flying, but one of the contributing causes was the F/O's lack of speaking up to the captain when things were going awry (unstabilized approach).

End result, plane crashed, all 100+ on board dead.



NO ONE belongs in a Airbus A320 as an F/O at 200 hours, I don't care what hiring standards you passed and what academy you attended!

Now, being a "Second Officer / Relief Officer" for 18-24+ months is something that should be ok for 200 hour pilots, which is what airlines like Singapore Airlines and Dragon Air do for their ab initios. You're a relief pilot for quite some time until becoming an F/O.
 
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Hmm,
I think ab-initio programs have been very successful, but I don't know of any that puts you in revenue service with only 70 hrs of actual flight time...And the people that are selected for those programs are usually put through a fairly selective screening process.


Turbo
 
Flyer1015 said:
Gulf Air Airbus crash circa 2000 in Bahrain.

F/O had 410 total time... 200 of that through his ab-initio training, and 210 on the Airbus A320.

Don't know who was pilot flying, but one of the contributing causes was the F/O's lack of speaking up to the captain when things were going awry (unstabilized approach).

End result, plane crashed, all 100+ on board dead.



NO ONE belongs in a Airbus A320 as an F/O at 200 hours, I don't care what hiring standards you passed and what academy you attended!

Now, being a "Second Officer / Relief Officer" for 18-24+ months is something that should be ok for 200 hour pilots, which is what airlines like Singapore Airlines and Dragon Air do for their ab initios. You're a relief pilot for quite some time until becoming an F/O.


Tenerife 1977

The pilot of the KLM, Captain van Zanten, their "top man", seems to have been in some considerable hurry to get going and appears to have held a level of authority that subordinates did not dare challenge with the necessary strength.

This was a Senior Training Captain at the controls.
 
HarryParatestes said:
This was a Senior Training Captain at the controls.

It's an all-to-common, yet frightening scenario: pushy senior training captain/check airman in a hurry paired with a low-time or low-experience IOE FO.

Not saying this was the circumstance in any particular case, but I've seen it personally and it is *best Iceman imitation* "DANGEROUS!"
 
AWACoff said:
They already have started this over in the U.S.A. It's called affirmative action.
Um, not sure that you are seeing the point here.
 
Flyer1015 said:
NO ONE belongs in a Airbus A320 as an F/O at 200 hours, I don't care what hiring standards you passed and what academy you attended!

Nor do they belong in the right seat of an RJ / ERJ for that matter.
 
Come on! Didn't U.S. airlines do this kind of thing years ago? Didn't Ernie Gann get all his flight training paid in full by AA? How is this any different? Don't tell me it would be harder now. Anyone who thinks it's harder to fly an ILS in an A320 than a four-spoke range in a DC-3 is nuts.
 
This stuff HAS been going on for quite awhile abroad. Usedta work in a place that trained these types of students. We had mostly Koreans and Indians (dots, not feathers) and a few others who were hired by their respective countries' airlines OFF THE STREET to be airline pilots, never having flown an airplane before. The companies gave the applicants aptitude tests, (IQ, motor skills, psych, etc) and if they passed, it was off to the good ol' US of A for training in a Warrior, 150, or TraumaHawk depending on the airline in question. Grab a quick commercial/instrument, and then into the Apache for a multi. At that point, back home to your country of origin to convert your licenses, and into the sim for the 737/747/whatever. It kinda pissed off the instructors (who were making a colossal SIX BUCKS AN HOUR) that we were training these guys who would be in a jet in six months, while we'd be doing this for another few years to land a 135 freight gig, to score a turboprop gig, to maybe eventually get to fly a jet.

I think this scenario (versus the USA, and our kick-ass regional pay) :rolleyes: clearly shows what a mistake deregulation was in this country. If the routes were still regulated, or if we had one or two big NATIONALLY OWNED airlines, as some other countries do, we'd all still be making money. (And no, I'm not a wanna-be communist, socialist, or anything.) You can't beat a government job for giving someone with minimum training or experience a maximum paycheck, right? (Look at the guys who drive snowplows/ salt trucks/ street sweepers/ whatever for their State or Municipality. Why do they make more than me?) That pretty much sums up what goes on at some other countries' airlines.
 
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The cost-cutting initiative is part of efforts by the national carrier to introduce more black people into it's pilot ranks.


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suicavflight...oh, I think I get it.
 
AWACoff said:
The cost-cutting initiative is part of efforts by the national carrier to introduce more black people into it's pilot ranks.


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I dont think that is it, but maybe I am wrong. Can you please point to some source for your information?
 
sleddriver77 said:
.....I think this scenario (versus the USA, and our kick-ass regional pay) clearly shows what a mistake deregulation was in this country. If the routes were still regulated, or if we had one or two big NATIONALLY OWNED airlines, as some other countries do, we'd all still be making money....

THANK YOU!!!
 
pilotyip said:
All part of the grwoing world wide pilot shortage, that will soon be coming to North America, ties in to the hiring boom starting next year around June

it was january a couple a months ago...how long do i have to wait!
 
no! no! no! it has always been June of 2007, been posting that since June of 2003
 
All the signs

8 hr all the signs are there, shortage on the entry level, recalls accelerating, decrease in certificates being issued, worldwide shortage, bankrupt airlines emerging for bankruptcy, and the number of jobs being posted on the job sites that have minimumal qualifications.

 
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