Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Woerth might not sign a Mesaba concessionary contract

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

ualdriver

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2003
Posts
1,400
Pilots Chief Defiant in Mesaba Showdown
Thursday July 20, 6:14 pm ET
By Joshua Freed, AP Business Writer Pilots Union Chief Defiant in Mesaba Showdown
BLOOMINGTON, Minn. (AP) -- The head of the nation's largest pilots union set up a potential legal showdown over Mesaba Airlines on Thursday, saying he'd prefer liquidation of the Northwest Airlines feeder over accepting a contract approved by a bankruptcy judge.

Air Line Pilots Association President Duane Woerth vowed a strike that could kill Mesaba if it imposes a new contract on pilots -- even though a judge has given the airline permission to do so. And he said he won't sign a contract that includes similar terms, even if Mesaba's 730 active pilots approve it.....

linky: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060720/mesaba_labor.html?.v=1
 
Nice to see how bold he is with someone elses company just to make a statement and yet had no problem with it for his own company or Delta.

ALPA's rules for regionals is obviously different than for majors.
 
Yes, but however much of a letdown the NWA and big D BK contracts were, those guys are still making a living. Mesaba's proposed rates take the FO's and FA's right down deep into true poverty: no exageration, actual true federal poverty. That just must not ever be allowed.
 
"Mesaba's parent, MAIR Holdings Inc., filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in October."

Spon-on reporting. ~sarcasm~ Com'on silly, we all know that MAIR has all our money, but don't let that distract us, because at the end of the day, we're still going to need 19.4% from you. Thank you for all your hard work and dedication and professionalism in these tough times that we all face. Spongebob-out.

Anyways, Make it happen Duane. If you want to stop the race to the bottom, here's one of the first things you can do. But does this mean that we all become martyrs?
 
I sure as hell hope he won't sign it. When we voted on our current contract everybody said they voted no but it still passed. Hmm... Hopefully he will actually do what he says.
 
CHQ Pilot said:
Didn't Woerth do the same thing to the CCAir pilots in 2002?

Not sure, but he did it with Midway when they were doing USAIR express service...


On another note, I thought everyone was pissed cause DW kept signing these low ball contracts.... Now, he might not sign this one and its still not good enough...

Whiners and Haters...
 
Don't worry

Don't worry. Duanes statement says he won't sign anything that gives a 19.4% cut. He'll never get the chance. The pilot group will vote it down by 100%. My guess is they will wait til the last minute, like they always do, and then have something like 10% for 3 years. Who knows if it will pass.
 
Worthless should make his stand with Delta, Nothwest, USair, and all the other "mainline carriers". It makes me sick that ALPA is leaning on the regionals to hold the bar up while ALPA issues press releases praising mainline carriers for "helping their carriers by taking pay cuts" and "facilitating the destruction of penison plans". Whenever you see retired ALPA pilots opposing currently employed ALPA pilots you know something stinks. If Worthless wants the bar held up he should be preaching to the mainline pilots. Yes I am a regional captain and yes I have been drinking tonight. But, this whole campaign to get the regionals to maintain the status quo stinks. Sure I think that we should not take consessions but I don't need Worthless telling me what to do. Not after he has signed so many concessionary deals at mainline carriers and left the retirees and furloughed pilots swinging in the breeze. Worthless wants the bar held up to reinforce the mainline position. He could care less about the regional dues payers.
 
I sure hope DW will grow a pair. Take the legal system and use every avenue available. Management certainly is. I would rather shut this place down and take my chances with the replacement. which will still pay more than the paycuts we would take. I will vote no to any paycut. Fooly and Sponge Bob can join my family in finding a new job. Though I'm sure they have some golden parachute to keep them afloat.
 
I guess if XJ were to liquidate there would be no controversey over who replaces XJ and the Avro flying (for the drinking cpt I am hinting at Compass). Huh, maybe there IS a reason behind DW's newly found testes. Oh, by the way, balls are for talkers, the real question is when the crap hits the fan whose going to be finding DW jr up their .............
 
CHQ Pilot said:
Didn't Woerth do the same thing to the CCAir pilots in 2002?

Yes he did. He believed that they agreed to the TA under duress and refused to sign it as a result. The CCAir pilots were eventually brought into the Mesa seniority list with their contract.
 
Copydat said:
Worthless should make his stand with Delta, Nothwest, USair, and all the other "mainline carriers". It makes me sick that ALPA is leaning on the regionals to hold the bar up while ALPA issues press releases praising mainline carriers for "helping their carriers by taking pay cuts" and "facilitating the destruction of penison plans". Whenever you see retired ALPA pilots opposing currently employed ALPA pilots you know something stinks. If Worthless wants the bar held up he should be preaching to the mainline pilots. Yes I am a regional captain and yes I have been drinking tonight. But, this whole campaign to get the regionals to maintain the status quo stinks.


It's about time. This whole game really got going when management started whipsawing mainline carriers with their regionals. I know it existed before but when management realised they could use their regionals against mainline it gave them a lot of power. Now regionals are getting whipsawed by other regionals. It's got to stop. We pilots in general are absolute suckers. Not to mention too stupid to know we are being played when management comes to us with the promise keeping our flying, gaining new flying, and getting new, larger, jet airplanes.

You mentioned regionals holding the bar up. What? No offense but the regional pay has been why the airline pilot pay bar has been lowered to this point. I'm a former regional pilot myself so I'm not trying to dump on you alone but every regional out there flying jet aircraft right now got their first jet on property because management came to their pilot group and said we'll get these jets and you guys can fly these jets if you fly them at these rates. And so it all began. They played this game from 50 seaters, to 70 seaters, up to 90 seaters. Don't forget the American Eagle MD-80 for 80 few (I know it wasn't the majority over there). Now instead of regioanl airlines flying from say Denver to Sioux Falls, they are now doing flights such as DEN-ATL and SFO-AUS.

I applaud XJ for taking the stand that they are taking. Of course I don't want to see them go away either. I'm a former XJ'er myself but enough is enough. Mesa has been near the bottom of the barrell for over a decade. Now management want's them to fly at 10% less than Mesa? As far as I know, all the big regionals out there get paid a fee per departure. Irregardless if they carry zero passenger or a full boat, they get paid no matter what. They don't have to commit any resources to reservations, advertisement, and normally get help on training cost, fuel cost, and de-icing cost. They are damn near guaranteed to make a profit. If XJ is trully in trouble financialy, it's a management problem. Not a pilot problem. The pilots at Mesaba seem to understand this and it appears Woerth does also.

I do agree that mainline should take or should have taken more of a stand. The state of pay in this industry isn't strictly the fault of regionals. There is a lot of blame to go around. I don't agree that mainline ALPA pilots are "leaning" on regional ALPA to hold the bar up.
 
D-Bo,

Actually the regional got started flying Navajos, Twin Otters, Metroliners and such. They were giving service to small markets that were loosing large aircraft service due to deregulation. Eventually mainline carriers signed full blown code share agreements with these carriers. Only fifteen years into the game did management start saying we will give you these jets if you take a pay cut. In fact, management overlooked the regionals for the first three or four years after 9/11. During those years mainline guys were taking concessions and giving up their pensions. My point on the previous post is that Worthless knows if the regionals/mainline cost gap decreases there will be less pressure on the mainline guys. As long as there is a large cost discrepancy there is an advantage to stuffing your customers into a cramped RJ for a two hour flight. I don't think pay cuts are the answer and I wish that ALPA had formed their no concession policy years ago. Instead they endorsed the destruction of mainline benefits in order to keep guys working while they ask the regional guys to give up their jobs instead of taking pay cuts. The real deal is that they want to make their stand with a membership group that they view as transient and expendable. I say "Worthless let my MEC decide for us and stay in your glass office." Should Worthless refuse to sign a TA that my membership, MEC and CNC has endorsed he can forget about me as I will withdraw my membership in ALPA. Worthless does not know what is best for our local membership. He only cares for keeping his paycheck rolling.
 
Anyways, Make it happen Duane. If you want to stop the race to the bottom, here's one of the first things you can do. But does this mean that we all become martyrs?[/quote]

52 Virgins will be there for your taking my son........................

Good luck guys.
 
Anyways, Make it happen Duane. If you want to stop the race to the bottom, here's one of the first things you can do. But does this mean that we all become martyrs

Conflicts with.....

I say "Worthless let my MEC decide for us and stay in your glass office." Should Worthless refuse to sign a TA that my membership, MEC and CNC has endorsed he can forget about me as I will withdraw my membership in ALPA. Worthless does not know what is best for our local membership.

I don't get it.. One guy says stop the race and another guy says stay out of my sandbox.
 
According to the news XJ needs immediate concessions by august 1st. However, with 10 day notice they would have to do that by today. Do they nedd concessions, what the hell is going on?
 
Hulk Hogan said:
I guess if XJ were to liquidate there would be no controversey over who replaces XJ and the Avro flying (for the drinking cpt I am hinting at Compass). Huh, maybe there IS a reason behind DW's newly found testes. Oh, by the way, balls are for talkers, the real question is when the crap hits the fan whose going to be finding DW jr up their .............

Bingo!

Here's why Duane is suddenly ready to make a stand.

His good 'ol boys at NWA (The airline formerly nown as Northwest) got a deal to fly RJs with Compass. They want is, they can have it, screw those pee on regional pilots! Now every "A Group" (mainline) has taken their pay cut and got theirs.

Duane happens to up for re-election. Who's gonna vote for him? Group A. Who does Duane know WONT vote for him? Groups B and C (the regionals). Why? Because he has screwed us at every turn. So why would he fight for Mesaba at the expense of his good 'ol boys not... it looks better for him to "take a stand" with an airline that the A Group percieves that doesn't really matter.

In other words, this whole thing is a political stunt for Duane to look good before his election in October. He is throwing the Mesaba workers and their families under the bus.

That's what this is all about. MAIR management raped them, but many companies have survived worse. If Mesaba dies, it's ALPA politica that killed them.
 
John Pennekamp said:
Duane happens to up for re-election. Who's gonna vote for him? Group A. Who does Duane know WONT vote for him? Groups B and C (the regionals). Why? Because he has screwed us at every turn. So why would he fight for Mesaba at the expense of his good 'ol boys not... it looks better for him to "take a stand" with an airline that the A Group percieves that doesn't really matter.

I think you'll be surprised at how many Group B and C reps cast their votes for Captain Woerth. Who do you think is a viable alternative?
 
You never really know who'll come out of the woodword until the gavel hits at the end of the BOD. This one could be interesting.
 
Copydat said:
D-Bo,

Actually the regional got started flying Navajos, Twin Otters, Metroliners and such. They were giving service to small markets that were loosing large aircraft service due to deregulation. Eventually mainline carriers signed full blown code share agreements with these carriers. Only fifteen years into the game did management start saying we will give you these jets if you take a pay cut.


Really? Of course I know that. Point is, Navajos, Twin Otters, and Metroliners were not taking away flying from mainline. Management didn't really start to use their regionals as a way to take away mainline flying and lower mainline pay until they started getting jets. No where in there did I say that regionals didn't get started until they got jets. I said this game of whipsawing with the regionals didn't get started until a decade and a half ago. I spent a lot of years at the regionals myself so save your breath in trying to school me on how they got started and what type of aircraft they got started with.
 
From http://www.startribune.com/535/story/565507.html
20 July 2006

StarTribune.com said:
Union: NWA trying to 'gouge' Mesaba labor

The leader of the ALPA said pressure from Northwest has forced the regional carrier to try to get unrealistic labor cuts.

Liz Fedor, Star Tribune

The head of an international pilots union said Thursday that Northwest Airlines cannot act like an innocent bystander in Mesaba Airlines' drive to get its employees to accept deep wage cuts.

Duane Woerth, president of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), said Mesaba is pushing for the labor savings in an effort to secure regional jets from Northwest in a bidding war among regional carriers.

"They're trying to say they have clean hands," Woerth said of Northwest. But Woerth, a former Northwest board member, argued that the airline is attempting to "gouge" labor at its regional carrier partners. Northwest is Mesaba's only customer. Both airlines are trying to reorganize in bankruptcy proceedings.

Woerth, whose union represents pilots at 39 carriers, said Mesaba is proposing to pay its pilots below the levels paid by regional carriers for US Airways, United Airlines and Delta Air Lines. Under the current contract, a starting Mesaba pilot earns $21,000 a year; on average, Mesaba pilots make about $45,000 a year.

Woerth said pilots across the country view the Mesaba negotiations as a "watershed event" because the regional carrier wants to pay rates that would set a new low for the industry.

Woerth flatly stated that he will not sign a contract for Mesaba pilots that includes the 19.4 percent labor cost cuts over six years that management has been demanding since December. While any pilot contract must be reviewed by the Mesaba pilots executive council and ratified by the members, Woerth has the final say on whether a union contract will take effect.

U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Gregory Kishel ruled a week ago that Mesaba can impose pay rates and work rules on its three biggest unions at any time, provided it gives 10 days' notice.

"This bargaining needs to get serious, because the judge isn't the final arbiter. I have the final word on the pilot contract or a strike," said Woerth, who was in the Twin Cities to meet with Mesaba pilots and to conduct media interviews. "If they want a legal war, a strike, they'll get it all."

The pilots, mechanics and flight attendants have formed a Mesaba Labor Coalition, and they are jointly fighting the degree of concessions management is seeking. Each has offered some labor cutbacks over three years. "We are very eager to work out a consensual agreement with all three unions, and we are going to do so at the table and not in the media," Mesaba spokeswoman Elizabeth Costello said Thursday.

She stressed that the airline has refrained from starting the 10-day countdown before imposing terms because management strongly prefers negotiated deals with its unions.

She also denied that Northwest "has any controlling influence on the [Mesaba] negotiations."

Mesaba is a subsidiary of MAIR Holdings Inc. Northwest holds a large block of MAIR shares and historically has held multiple seats on its board.

"Issues relating to Mesaba are best addressed in negotiations between Mesaba and its unions," Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch said. "We expect Mesaba to continue to operate reliably."

Northwest filed for bankruptcy in September in New York; Mesaba filed a month later in Minneapolis, after Northwest skipped some payments owed to Mesaba. Northwest also notified Mesaba that it will take all of the Avro jets out of Mesaba's fleet, so the regional airline has been focused on keeping its core fleet of 49 Saab turboprops.

Tim Evenson, president of the Mesaba Association of Flight Attendants, said the company has not negotiated with his union for 44 days. However, he said, the two sides agreed Thursday to add a mediator to the talks.

Nathan Winch, a negotiator for the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association, said that mechanics had several meetings last week with company negotiators but that no sessions have been held since Kishel's ruling Friday.

Mesaba spokeswoman Costello said company leaders want to use mediators with all three unions as a means of helping both sides reach deals.

"We are not Pollyannas," said Tom Wychor, chairman of the Mesaba pilots union. "We understand there are problems with this company." But Wychor said the parties have been unable to forge agreements because the airline has been "asking for far more than they need."

In the past few years, Woerth said, ALPA leaders have dealt with bankruptcies at 19 airlines. He characterized Mesaba's approach and its demands of its labor unions as the most "egregious" he has seen.


Liz Fedor • 612-673-7709
 
John Pennekamp said:
Duane happens to up for re-election. Who's gonna vote for him? Group A. Who does Duane know WONT vote for him? Groups B and C (the regionals). Why? Because he has screwed us at every turn. So why would he fight for Mesaba at the expense of his good 'ol boys not... it looks better for him to "take a stand" with an airline that the A Group percieves that doesn't really matter.

In other words, this whole thing is a political stunt for Duane to look good before his election in October. He is throwing the Mesaba workers and their families under the bus.


I listened to Woerth's opponent speak two days ago and believe me when I tell you that Duane doesn't have to pull any stunts like this to win the election. I'm not a big Duane fan either but if he didn't say another word to any MEC's until the October election, he'd still win in a landslide. The only way Duane doesn't get re-elected is he dropped out of the race. Brannan doesn't have a chance. ALPA would be worse off with him in office.
 
[Elizabeth Costello] also denied that Northwest "has any controlling influence on the [Mesaba] negotiations."


B. F.'ing S.!

I sure am glad Liz made the point of asking the question.

Ooo, and use of the word "gouge!" Americans hate that word right now. Good stuff.

 
okay lests just say the worst happens, the contract is not acceptable, so we strike, woerth does not sign...whatever....either way....then the ground service contracts are dumped by NWA, then the result is that MAIR holdings stock crashes. What will happen? Oh, NWA will excersize their rights to buy stock, get a majority share, then take the 150 million in the bank at a price that is pennys for the dollar.

Good work !
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom