Who can answer these instrument questions?

[UND84]

Hello,
I am no longer attending UND but I am currently working on my instrument rating and have many questions. These may sound confusing as I write them but I will try to explain what I am asking.

Question #1. My main concern has to deal with when you are required to climb at which gradient. I know the standard gradient is 200 feet per nm based off of nothing penetrating the 152 feet per nm gradient. At the airport I fly out of, we have a vector SID. It is a published SID on a chart. There is no specified climb gradient on the chart. Am I expected to climb at 200 feet per nautical mile?

Question #2. On the bottom of the airport diagram for Jeppesen charts, many airports have the textual OBSTACLE DP: When do you fly that published route to get to the MEA? Is it for when you are not in radar contact and need a safe way to get up to your MEA?

Question #3. In the TAKE-OFF and OBSTACLE DEPARTURE PROCEDURE section of the airport diagram, many runways have their own special climb gradient such as runway 35 "with min climb of 240 feet/NM to 400 feet". Is that gradient for the textual OBSTACLE DP only?? What if you are on the ground at that airport and are taking off of runway 35 and are assigned a 250 heading and maintain 5000 feet as your ifr clearance and the airport is at sea level. I know that you must climb to 400 AGL before commencing your turn to the heading of 250. But in this case, what are you expected to climb at? 200 feet per nm? 240 feet/nm to 400 which is shown in the textual OBSTACLE DP and then passing 400, 200 feet per nm?

Question #4. After looking over many Jeppesen Charts, I can not figure out what the difference between a published SID and DP is? Both the graphical DP's or SID's can have a gradient higher than 200 feet per nm , so why not call them all DP's?

Question #5. There are vector and pilot nav DP's. The Portland Five departure out of KPDX says neither. Why is this? It is a SID and has climb gradients greater than the standard 200 feet per nm so why is it a SID and not a DP? The KELYY ONE RNAV DEPARTURE out of Portland is a DP that says OBSTACLE on the top of it in bold letters. What makes it qualify as an OBSTACLE DP? If the portland five departure has a higher gradient than standard, aren't you clearing an obstacle which would make the chart read OBSTACLE at the top?

Question #6. Why can you take off with 1/4 visiblity with adequate visual reference with jeppesen charts if you are 121, 135, or 129 and your company allows you to but it says nothing of this on NOS plates?

Thank you if you have made it this far. I know that this may make no sense but I just want to get these thoughts cleared up in my head because it seems a bit confusing. I analyze a lot and believe there is a definite answer to these questions and please ask for your help. I know that I should buy the Instrument Procedures Handbook. Thank you so much!

 

[AlwaysLearning]

Hello,

I am no longer attending UND but I am currently working on my instrument rating and have many questions. These may sound confusing as I write them but I will try to explain what I am asking.



Question #1. My main concern has to deal with when you are required to climb at which gradient. I know the standard gradient is 200 feet per nm based off of nothing penetrating the 152 feet per nm gradient. At the airport I fly out of, we have a vector SID. It is a published SID on a chart. There is no specified climb gradient on the chart. Am I expected to climb at 200 feet per nautical mile?



Yes, until you reach either the MSA or an MEA on a published route, you must maintain that 200’ per NM. If there is no published climb gradient the 200’ per nm is the min.



Question #2. On the bottom of the airport diagram for Jeppesen charts, many airports have the textual OBSTACLE DP: When do you fly that published route to get to the MEA? Is it for when you are not in radar contact and need a safe way to get up to your MEA?



Even in radar contact you fly those, unless ATC gives you a turn or different altitude. Keep in mind ATC can have lower MVAs than what is shown on the charts. KGFK has a good example. RWY 26, fly to specific altitude before turning. If tower gives you a climb on course cleared for take off, they are not necessarily expecting you to do this for traffic, but you should, note should, do it for obstacle avoidance. Most of those have a qualifer, if you have certain ceiling and vis you can bypass the DP since that ceiling and vis would allow you to see the obstacle you are not supposed to hit. Safe way, always fly what is published and heck break out a sectional or the notams to see why or what the obstacle is that is requiring the DP.



Question #3. In the TAKE-OFF and OBSTACLE DEPARTURE PROCEDURE section of the airport diagram, many runways have their own special climb gradient such as runway 35 "with min climb of 240 feet/NM to 400 feet". Is that gradient for the textual OBSTACLE DP only?? What if you are on the ground at that airport and are taking off of runway 35 and are assigned a 250 heading and maintain 5000 feet as your ifr clearance and the airport is at sea level. I know that you must climb to 400 AGL before commencing your turn to the heading of 250. But in this case, what are you expected to climb at? 200 feet per nm? 240 feet/nm to 400 which is shown in the textual OBSTACLE DP and then passing 400, 200 feet per nm?



Remember these are designed with assumption you are at 35’ above the departure end of the runway. You must climb at atleast 240’ per NM until 400 MSL then at least 200’ per NM to your MEA. Keep in mind ATC isn’t expecting a climb gradient, they are expecting a climb rate. These climb gradients are for obstacle avoidance not traffic (99% of the time).



Question #4. After looking over many Jeppesen Charts, I can not figure out what the difference between a published SID and DP is? Both the graphical DP's or SID's can have a gradient higher than 200 feet per nm , so why not call them all DP's?



SIDs and DPs are the same thing. The FAA did away with the SID (I think, or vice versa) acronym and all are now called DPs. Jepp hasn’t completely made the change yet so you get some that say DP and some say SID.



Question #5. There are vector and pilot nav DP's. The Portland Five departure out of KPDX says neither. Why is this? It is a SID and has climb gradients greater than the standard 200 feet per nm so why is it a SID and not a DP? The KELYY ONE RNAV DEPARTURE out of Portland is a DP that says OBSTACLE on the top of it in bold letters. What makes it qualify as an OBSTACLE DP? If the portland five departure has a higher gradient than standard, aren't you clearing an obstacle which would make the chart read OBSTACLE at the top?



Vector DPs usually don’t have “courses” on them, just VOR/Navaids, and bearings since ATC will usually clear you direct to a Navaid, or if depicted an airway. Again this is an FAA thing and if you look the ones that actually say Pilot Nav are called DPs, while the ones that don’t say either pilot nav or radar are called SIDs. Just naming conventions that haven’t completely standardized yet. KMSP has a good example of a Vector SID, while KCLT has some good example of pilot nav SIDs/DPs. Most pilot nav SIDs/DPs have transition(s) fix(es) on them.



Question #6. Why can you take off with 1/4 visiblity with adequate visual reference with jeppesen charts if you are 121, 135, or 129 and your company allows you to but it says nothing of this on NOS plates?



I can’t speak to 135 or 129 ops, but 121 ops, the actual airline will have in its opspecs what the takeoff minimums are for given conditions. At my airline we are allowed to takeoff at 600RVR as long as we have adequate visual reference, (runway lights HIRL, markings etc) AND the runway is certified for 600 RVR or less. You find that on the airport diagram on the runway section on the back. KRIC shows for RWYS 16,34 a RVR of 600 AS LONG AS Center Line Lighting (CL) and Center Line Markings (RCLM) are visible and working. You also have to have at least two RVR sensor groups working and if all 3 are working and one is below 600 RVR you can not take off. But if one is broken and the other two report at least 600 RVR you can go, IF your airline opspecs allow for it.



Adequate visual reference means, being able to see the runway, that’s it. All you have to be able to do is keep it between the lights, for the ¼ or 1600 RVR limit. When you start getting lower than that, then you have to have certain equipement working on the runway. I’m not sure if it is standard but most of the time it is Centerline Lighting and Centerline Markings.



I can’t tell you why the NOS plates don’t have the ¼ mile thing, I haven’t looked at an NOS plate in years, but you might find the alternate takeoff mins up front with everything else.



Thank you if you have made it this far. I know that this may make no sense but I just want to get these thoughts cleared up in my head because it seems a bit confusing. I analyze a lot and believe there is a definite answer to these questions and please ask for your help. I know that I should buy the Instrument Procedures Handbook. Thank you so much!

Hope this answered your questions. Anyone else, if I answered these wrong don't hesitate to correct me. Its been a while since I have taught or actually thought about this stuff.

 

[UND84]

Thank you alwayslearning,
I still have a few more questions after I did some further reading. In response to question #3, those special gradients are for whether or not you got a heading and altitude or were assigned the textual obstacle dp?

I read in the jeppesen book and it sounds like they are getting rid of DP'S and are going to call them SID's. "Due to the dynamic nature of instrument procedures and charts, you will see the term DP used interchangeably for SID during this interim period as the FAA transitions from DP terminology to SID. For a period of time, as Jeppesen charts are revised, you will continue to see the presence of departure charts which may be labeld as Departure(DP) or SID."

If you go to the NOTAMS section of the Jeppesen insrument commercial book it talks about how they wanted to get rid of SID's but that confused pilots so they are now going back to SID and ODP's in the near future.

I was wondering about why the Portland Five Departure does not say vector or pilot nav. The jeppesen book says " Additional changes being implemented by the FAA include deleting the terms pilot nav and vector from departure charts, so for a period of time, as charts are revised, you will see departure charts with and without the pilot nav and vector labels."

Anyone one else who has comments on this topic and the original post, please please respond.

 

[AlwaysLearning]

Don't get too wrapped up in it, if a DP/SID doesnt say Vector or Pilot Nav. It doesn't really change anything. You can easily tell if a SID is pilot nav or vector by the layout. Pilot nav will almost always have courses, radials, and fixes, whhere vector will usually only have navaids and greyed courses and radials for positional awareness. Typical vector SIDS cover a larger area too, but that is not always a hard and fast rule. You sort of answered your own question on the Portland 5 departure. Jepp is in the process of reformatting all the DPs and STARs and such, they dont do them all at once because then everyone has to get an updated chart for every single DP they have a subscription too, so they do it slowly.

If there is a textual obstacle DP, like the ones found on the back of most airport diagrams, you probably won't be assigned that by ATC, they expect you to follow it, if conditions warrant it. The only DP/SID you get assigned are the charted ones, ie ones with names, like your Portland 5 departure.

To give an example of an obstacle DP:
Albany NY Rwy 10
With a climb gradient of 260' per NM you can take off with 1/4 with adequate vis or STD 1 mile for 1-2 engine, 1/2 mile for 3 and 4 engine. On top of that The DP is climbing left turn to 1800' MSL, after reaching 400', on a 010 heading before proceeding on course. ATC will not give that to you as a DP, thy may just say cleared for takeoff, or they may throw the heading in there. Now if you can't meet the 260' per NM gradient, if the weather is at least 300 and 1 you can takeoff with at least a 200' per NM gradient, since the 300 and 1 allows you to see the trees that are off the end of the runway. The DP could also be for noise abatement or buildings that are in the area. The point is, these DPs on the back of airport diagrams are not named or in a database so ATC doesn't really assign them. It is your responsibility for obstacle avoidance when you fly these, or don't fly them

LGA has another good example. The DP says for RWY 13 (Flushing Climb) to climb on runway heading to 800' MSL before turning WESTBOUND, but the LGA 9 (Vector) says to climb on RWY heading until 2.5 DME of of LGA then a left turn 050 up to 5000.
The whitestone climb off the same runway has you turn immediately (400 agl) to 180 heading to 2.5 DME LGA, then turn left to 040 up to 5000 MSL.
These both provide obstacle clearance as long as you maintain 200' per NM and some SIDs have higher gradients for specific runways and/or directions off of runways. These are assigned by ATC where the DP would be expected if you were not assigned the LGA 9 and where going westbound.

In the begining, insert god like music here, DPs were the obstacle departures you find on the back of the airport diagrams, and SIDs were the traffic flow departures. The FAA just wanted to call them SIDs but pilots being creatures of habit had a hard time differentiating and became confused because now it seemed as if all DPs were now mandatory when in fact they are not.

Hope this helps a little more, good luck with your training.