Universal Pilots Union?

[PBRstreetgang]

Hello,
Would you, as an airline pilot leave ALPA, or join(if un-affiliated), a new pilots union?

 

[Q200_FO]

depends....

That depends on A LOT of details.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey,
You are correct, the devil is in the details.
This is armchair academics, just wondering who is thinking what, thats all.
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

TOP

 

[PBRstreetgang]

TOP

 

[trainerjet]

Hey PBR. You sure seem to have to keep bumping both of your "polls" to the TOP. Over and over.

Doesn't that tell you something? Maybe that should be your answer.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Trainerjet,
It is really pretty simple, if you don't like what I am doing, why don't you become the Minister of Computer access. I hear the Department of Homeland Security is interviewing.
Have a nice day
PBR

 

[Ty Webb]

Pilots would be much better off if we had a Guild, which is pretty much what you are talking about. I have said that on this forum before. That would sure prevent the whipsawing that is going on, that's for sure.

The way it works is pilots are compensated by their years in the industry, not at each company, and companies don;t hire you directly, they contract through the guild. If they need, say, 200 B737 FO, they request them from the Guild. The pay is standard for the airplane and seat- no negotiation. Your seniority in the Guild allows you to bid different companies say, every year or to.

The funny thing is that once the Guild sets the price per hour for the pilot, the only thing the company can do to lure you to work for them is to have convenient domiciles, amenities, meals, etc!

Unfortunately, I don't see it happening, but you never know.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Trainerjet,
this one is for you,
TOP
PBR

 

[InclusiveScope]

News Release

Federal Court OK’s Lawsuit Against Pilots’ Union,
Thwarts Union Effort to Preserve Separate Levels of Representation;
Recommends Pilots Seek Class-Action Status
June 25, Cincinnati — Thwarting plans of the Air Line Pilots Association [ALPA] to continue using "scope" clauses of collective bargaining agreements to create a lower caste of ALPA member, a federal court permitted claims alleging that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation ["DFR"] to go forward. The decision will allow pilots at Comair, Inc., a Delta subsidiary, to make their case that ALPA maintains two levels of representation – one for the higher-paid "mainline" pilots at such carriers as Delta, and a lower level of representation for pilots at "regional" airlines.

In a lengthy decision in Ford v. Air Line Pilots Association, International, Judge I. Leo Glasser of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York upheld the right of hundreds of Comair pilots to sue their union for working against their interests.

Although Judge Glasser dismissed a range of side claims, the main thrust of the lawsuit, dealing with the duty of fair representation, was allowed to go forward. Specifically, the claim that prevailed against ALPA’s motion to dismiss was the one in which plaintiffs sought a myriad of injunctive relief to prevent ALPA from negotiating Delta collective bargaining agreements that wield economic harm upon ALPA’s Comair constituency. The claim that was upheld alleges that ALPA uses the scope clause of the Delta collective bargaining agreement as a remote control device to limit flying at Comair, thus limiting the career growth and earning potential of Comair pilots. Judge Glasser’s decision is believed to be the first time that a federal court has recognized that ALPA has a potential conflict of interest in representing both "mainline" and "regional" pilots.


A similar lawsuit was filed against ALPA last month by pilots at Atlantic Southeast Airlines, Inc. [ASA]. It is as yet unclear how the court’s ruling will impact current bargaining between Delta and its pilots, but Captain Daniel Ford, President of the umbrella organization that is coordinating the Comair and ASA lawsuits, said the decision "ushers in a new era in union representation of pilots at so-called ‘regional’ carriers. Ford, who heads the Regional Jet Defense Coalition, said, "ALPA is going to have to sit up and take notice that it is accountable to all its members and can no longer sacrifice its constituents at smaller carriers to appease its large carrier membership."

Judge Glasser, in a 39-page decision, wrote, "Plaintiffs have sufficiently stated a claim that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation by allegedly negotiating contracts that arbitrarily favor the Delta pilots over the Comair pilots." The Court specifically found invalid ALPA’s insistence that the dispute between it and its Comair members should be relegated to the National Mediation Board, which has little if any power to address the dispute.

The Judge also permitted more than 300 additional Comair pilots to join the lawsuit, but strongly suggested that the case be converted into a class action on behalf of all Comair pilots. The Court directed the parties to address that issue within 30 days.

The RJ Defense Coalition is a non-profit advocacy organization formed by the ASA and Comair pilots in an effort to speak out on important issues and to bring about change in the union's predatory conduct against its own members. The mission of the RJDC is to protect the ASA and Comair pilots from the harm caused by the union's predatory bargaining and to ensure that ALPA provides equal and fair representation into the future.

Contacts:

Captain Daniel Ford, RJDC President, (859) 816-4580
Captain Ken Cooksey, RJDC Team Leader ASA, (770) 893-1773
Michael S. Haber, Esq. Attorney-at-Law, (212) 791-6240
RJDC e-mail: [email protected]
RJDC web site: http://www.rjdefense.com

 

[FlyComAirJets]

It's interesting that you selected "UPA" as the initials for an alternative union. You see, 20+ years ALPA established a sister union for commuter pilots called the Union of Professional Airmen or UPA. Don't feel bad about overlooking that. If you read Flying The Line Part II ,it was only given passing mention in a single paragraph.

ALPA tried that once but did not relish giving up their domination, er, control, of regional pilots. I doubt they would willingly try it again.

If there is an alternative to ALPA, be ready to have to fight for it...or go talk to the Teamsters, they would love to return the favor after what ALPA did to them when they raided some of their locals. That is a Big No No.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

What is needed is one national payscale for all small jet aircraft. If ALPA can deliver that, great. If not, maybe another union. If majors won't include their Express affiliates in their scope clauses then this is the only way to stop JO and the race to the bottom. Of course this is about as likely to succeed as true communism.....

 

[spinproof]

The RJDC seems destine to morph into a representative union. The current lawsuit withstanding.

 

[wms]

The way it works is pilots are compensated by their years in the industry, not at each company, and companies don;t hire you directly, they contract through the guild. If they need, say, 200 B737 FO, they request them from the Guild. The pay is standard for the airplane and seat- no negotiation. Your seniority in the Guild allows you to bid different companies say, every year or to.

So if you're a fairly senior guy at JB or SWA and USAir or UAL go out of business, you can be displaced to the street by their very senior pilots because of mismanagement at their companies.

The airline industry is not the same as the entertainment industry. Acting by nature is transient, whereas ideally we would like to be in a more stable position. There is a difference between an airline going under and a show running its course or a series coming to an end, that's the nature of their business. We would like ours to be more stable and not have our job security swayed by another company's failure.

 

[steveg]

Re: The above post

And this is why it will never work. This is why the highest paid pilots are taking pay cuts, and other groups are asking the FAA to wave the work rules so they can work harder for the company.

We need to realize that there are students at Wharton MBA school that are figuring out ways to reduce the "overpaid" pilot's salaries', and figuring ways to make our life harder. Instead, we are too busy worrying about who's hiring. The one thing no pilot ever gets until it's too late, we are just labor. No different than the Local whatever down the street. 5 years ago, aa and Ual and DAL were "THE" places to go. They were going to hire indefinitely. Now it's JB, ATA, and AirTran. I hope so, but we all study history in school for a reason. The big difference we have with the Local down the street is that once we get on with another company, we hope for the demise of another so our life will get better. I met a union carpenter a few years back that was on a layoff. He was still getting benefits, a weekly paycheck, and chances to work short contracts elsewhere for extra cash. All while he was laid off. Shoot, he loved it, said it gave him more time at home. Funny the difference, he wasn't looking at taking another carpenters job by working for less.

I wish ALPA knew the definition of UNION!

 

[Clyde]

No to a universal pilot's union. I am very pleased with our own in-house union. When you accept a job with a company, you're rolling the dice. Sometimes it's in your favor and sometimes not. You never know.

 

[FN FAL]

Hello,
Would you, as an airline pilot leave ALPA, or join(if un-affiliated), a new pilots union?

I think I could agree with ty webb...the date you get your commercial pilots license should be the date of your seniority number with the commercial pilots union or guild. With this, you should be offered positions with airlines and commercial operators and paying for ratings or types should not be a normal part of the industry.

 

[Publishers]

Manage

Does the employers rights have any part in this. The union clause is "Managements right to manage". This stuff might work except you all tend to think in terms only of the big leagacy carriers of which there are fewer and fewer of every year. One of the reasons for that is a continued stangulation of productivity.

We can talk all day about the oppressed and overworked pilots, but most of the ones I know who have a bit of seniority are mainly concerned about how much time off they can get and still get paid. They are great guys and good friends but they would like "george" to fly them on an out and back once a week and have someone bring their check to the gate so they can get right out of there.

The last time I looked we still had a free enterprise system where one can start a business, hire who they want, conform to the regulations, and offer their services to the public for a price they deem satisfactory.

The concept of calling the hall for 737 drivers and having to take them is not what this is about. This is a skilled work force in a professional industry. If one gets into the airline industry or fractionals or corporate, you are going to fly planes and be, by the nature of the business, gone a good deal of the time. If you want to be home every night or want to work 9 to 5, this is probably not for you. That said, if we ask a group of pilots what they do not like, it is being away and the unusual hours.

Management needs to recognize the needs of the various labor groups and try to work with them to achieve the desired compromise. What the labor groups need to realize is that the productivity needs to be there or all is lost.

 

[Clyde]

What is needed is one national payscale for all small jet aircraft. If ALPA can deliver that, great. If not, maybe another union. If majors won't include their Express affiliates in their scope clauses then this is the only way to stop JO and the race to the bottom. Of course this is about as likely to succeed as true communism.....

What is needed is a lot of pilots out there in various unions to start growing some testicles and telling their prospective management that days of working for peanuts are over. Want to train pilots, airline pays for it. Want pilots to fly jets, pay (insert amount here).

Getting to the union question. I personally am not in favor of a national union/seniority list. I made a decision to come to my airline and it was a good choice. Somebody else made a decision to go to another airline of their choosing and turns out it isn't a good choice. I wouldn't want that person to come over here and take my job because that person is senior. Also, what is good for a pilot group at one carrier is not necessarily going to be good for me.

Besides, a group of pilots from the same carrier can rarely agree on where to go to eat. I doubt a national union would succeed.

 

[N8Dogg]

I don't know about the guild concept but it's about time the regionals have representation by an organization not affiliated with the majors. Sometimes there seems to be a conflict of interest (ALPA). Just my $.02.