SWA being called PREDATORY of others' misfortune

[Flopgut]

I hear new employees lament that they will never enjoy the life their predecessors had pre-deregulation, but most of them wouldn't have been able to get a job in the much smaller airline industry anyway.

Jobs? Perhaps. Careers? Certainly not.

Our economy provides aerospace the chance to lead the world in: Air frieght, aircraft manufacturing (commercial and bizjet), and fractional. Even this economy's LCC do well. But what about legacies? With all the regulation trained on them in this supposed de-regulated environment they've been excluded from doing the same. I don't think we can ascertain what the career would have been, or how big it would have been, the further we go. But I think these other aerospace sectors give us a glimpse. And I vehemently believe it is hardly blastphemy to point out that SWA has perhaps not been the greatest airline ever. It's just an opinion guys.

 

[nimtz]

Braniffs greatest achievement is being the trailer for the cartoon Southpark. The concorde was removed from service for being unsafe. Wright fazed out, SWA did win. Authrottles on Late 08. SWA Lead RNP airline 09-12. Whats your airline done lately? Laid off workers? Charged for a coke?

Having just done RNP approach training, I'm really curious to hear how Southwest will be the 'lead' RNP airline within the next 36 months? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you still trained dive and drive for non prec approaches. Gonna be a radical shift at the training the department to say the least.

 

[firstthird]

I'm not sure that SWA will ever lead anything where technology is concerned, but, apparently we've hired some technical pilots from Alaska to implement the 'super' RNP that Alaska is doing up there down here in the lower 48. West Jet is also doing some of those approaches above the border, but so far, there are none in the lower 48.

I doubt we'll be 'leading' in that we can't even do gps overlays or gps T's or constant rate approaches yet. But supposedly we're going to get there with the whole fleet (even the 300's) sometime around 2013 (just far enough in the future to be plausible and for the guilty parties that started all of this to be safely retired before any 'issues' come up)

the name is stupid, RNP. most planes already have ANP and RNP and Rnav approaches. but apparently this is what Alaska calls it's super RNAV arrivals, the ones with curving final approach segments, rolling wings level at 300 feet, ILS mins, that kind of stuff. far beyond any current GPS approach in the lower 48.

So, in summary, I'm not sure I buy the fact that we'll be LEADING anything but supposedly we are going to get there. And since no one is doing this 'RNP' in the lower 48, I doubt CAL is either. I think the terminology confuses many, including me. But a regular RNAV approach (LNAV/VNAV) is NOT RNP as these Alaska technical pilot guys define it.

 

[firstthird]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you still trained dive and drive for non prec approaches. Gonna be a radical shift at the training the department to say the least.

true
and
true.

we'll see if the training dept is up for it. presumably that is at least part of the reason we brought in the Alaska guys.

and it looks like I assumed you were CAL for some reason. who do you fly for that you are doing RNP approaches? the Alaska guys are telling us that there are currently NO approved RNP approaches in the lower 48 for anyone, including Alaska.

 

[Flopgut]

CAL lands North and South in Quito, Ecuador via RNP approaches.

 

[nimtz]

true
and
true.

we'll see if the training dept is up for it. presumably that is at least part of the reason we brought in the Alaska guys.

and it looks like I assumed you were CAL for some reason. who do you fly for that you are doing RNP approaches? the Alaska guys are telling us that there are currently NO approved RNP approaches in the lower 48 for anyone, including Alaska.

CAL just started sim training on domestic RNP, so everyone should be qual'ed in a year. We've been doing them down in Quito for sometime, but that's special airport. Now as far as I know, as long as the other guy is qualified then off you go.

Your right that the terminology is a pain, but essentially RNP to me means lower mins and position verification comes from the box only. The difference comes down to RNAV (GPS) vs RNAV (RNP) approach. GPS approaches can't be fancy, but RNP gives you the lower mins and the curved segments that you mentioned.

The company doesn't issue us every RNP approach, so there are few places where you could actually do one. Don't have my charts with me, but they only practical one is 28R in SFO instead of the Tiptoe Visual. There might be more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

They did right by hiring the Alaska guys since they pretty much invented this alphabet soup. It will take a good while though to get a/t and vnav pounded into everyone's head. That all has to be smooth before getting into the RNP element. Hence why I was questioning the 'leader' remark. Quite frankly I don't think Southwest has to be in a big hurry since most of the places you guys have plenty of means for getting in. Ten years from now might be a different story.

 

[MountainFreak]

No, but John Galt was. That's the whole point of bringing his name up. The character John Galt had no time for people who thought that the successful should share their success with the mediocre and inept. The thrust of this thread is "If SWA was managed as poorly as the other airlines, they'd be losing money too." Well....yeah, but they're not. They're succeeding because they're getting it right. More power to 'em.

Atlas Shrugged is one of my favorites, it is a classic. It is also fiction.
Saying we should live in John Galt's world is like saying we should live in a Hobbit-topia because we like Lord of the Rings.

Anyway, as far as predatory pricing, it is all in how the regulators define it. What if the airline is making money, but losing on that city-pair where they are trying to put out Frontier?
What about back in the day, if AA is making money on the international routes, but losing money out of Dallas in order to put out Braniff? Do fuel hedges count, or do they have to be making money on an operational basis? I don't know, and I doubt any of us know how the current regulators define it.

This is all talking point though, because even if SW is dumping seats (I think they are walking a fine line), no one is going to stop them. Like you said, they are too well run!

 

[firstthird]

Quite frankly I don't think Southwest has to be in a big hurry since most of the places you guys have plenty of means for getting in. Ten years from now might be a different story.

Supposedly the Alaska guys are going to design approaches into places like MDW where we could use the wind favored runway all the time regardless of ORD's runways if we had a shorter final segment. or maybe as a replacement for visuals at some of our mountainous airports (RNO, BUR, ABQ). and for the single engine climb out procedures too.

but, you're right, we've got to master a/t and LNAV/VNAV first; and seeing as autobrakes only took us 3 years, I don't have super high hopes.

I'm not surprised that CAL is going to be 4 or so years in front of us. Wonder when our training dept will wake up and realize that we're not 'industry leading' in any technology endeavor. not that there is anything wrong with that, just seems juvenile to run around talking about industry leading this or that when in fact we're still flying 700s like they were 1960's airplanes.

 

[bouttime]

Now I get it. Clever management of a business is predatory while ineffectual management is victimhood.

Who is John Galt?

Very wise words! SW has found its own "Reardan Metal"

 

[CA1900]

If you want to see what RNP can do, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHF9rPWFXzw

It's a 95-mile, serpentine approach to an airport in China that's surrounded by mountains. Truly impressive.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

If there had been one commercial use D-FW airport, or perfectly equal use of multiple D-FW airports, there would have been no controversy and no Wright Amendment. AA would be better off, probably Braniff and even Legend still flying. But there would be no SWA. Without SWA, de-regulation is a failure. That should be abundantly clear.

Big "if" that arguement is based on....lots of "if"s in history...too many to cover here anyway....

Besides...what you mentioned is all ancient history. IF someone is still hanging on to a single airport for the DFW area...they need a new hobby.

Harding Lawrence and AA played a bigger part in Braniff's demise than SWA did....

...in fact, it was Harding Lawrence's decisions that put Braniff in the weak financial position it found itself in 1981/82.

Braniff even took SWA's CEO in 1982, Howard Putnam, since he had all kinds of airline management experience....that allowed the SWA board to elect Herb to be the CEO of SWA. Up until then, Herb was just SWA's attorney...not too much airline menagement experience.

 

[SplitBar]

One thing I think we all can agree on is that when the hedges run out and it's a level playing field, SWA will have to reduce costs to compete.

When the hedges run out in a few years SWA will be hurting like everyone else.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Southwest is an airline that puts its employees first. Wow, what an idea. You wouldn't see Southwest aquire another airline and then standby while it's original employees got screwed now would you?

You don't know SWA. SWA luv is a myth. It existed in the past but not today.

SWA fires pilots, sends them home with weeks off at a time, and screws people over without a second thought.

I recently flew with an FA who quit SWA in 1998. He quit after being involved in an aircraft incident that SWA blamed on the crew when the crew had nothing to do without the cause of the problem.

A -200 was picked up from mx. After takeoff the crew had a dual hyd failure and landed under manual reversion at an off route airport. They stopped the airplane with the accumulator. It was hot outside. The cabin temp could not be controlled on the ground. The captain decided to open the doors without activating the slides during the prolong sitting on the aircraft AFTER the situation had been STABILIZED. While the doors where open the brakes caught on fire. The doors slides were activated and the plane was evacuated.

The crew got four months off while they were fired and rehired. The crew acted as hero's not zero's in getting a wound a/c MX screwed up back on the ground. But with SWA luv they were FIRED.

SWA LUV- Yea Right! And there are many other examples just like this one of SWA NOT backing up its crews actions in difficult situations.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

“Our People are our single greatest strength and our most enduring longterm competitive advantage.”
- Gary Kelly, CEO Southwest Airlines

But Gary will fire the first guy who screws up. He's a bottom line man, and if you mess with the bottom line don't let the door hit you in the bottom on the way out!

Every CEO says this type of crap!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

You don't know SWA. SWA luv is a myth. It existed in the past but not today

I don't know what base you are flying out of....but a buddy of mine at SWA had his father pass away suddenly.

Not only did he get the usual brevement leave specified in the contract, but, also got positive space back home from where he was on a trip.

Then, a week later ( a day before his normal 3 day trip) he gets a call from the base chief pilot, asking how things are going...next thing you know, the Chief is telling this guy not to show up for his trip...to take care of his family....but he will also get paid for it....waaaayyyy outside of what the contract calls for.

LUV myth?

Another guy, called up to active duty gets regular "care packages" from SWA, while his tent mates are getting furlough notices from their airlines...BTW...he generously shared the contents of thohse "Care packages" with his tent mates.

LUV myth???

And I too have my story...a bit too personal to talk about here...but if you want to believe that the LUV is gone...so be it...

...I've had the hand of help extended to me and my family while employed here....and I know at my old legacy employer....it would've never happened.

LUV myth? I don't think so.