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saw runway at 50' w/GS out of service

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densoo

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 2, 2004
Posts
2,054
I guess seeing the approach lights counts as "runway environenment" but 50 feet seems pretty low to go on a non-precision approach before seeing the runway. Losing sight of the runway at 30 feet seems like it would qualify for automatic go-around though.

NTSB Identification: CHI07MA072
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of Shuttle America (D.B.A. Delta Connection)
Accident occurred Sunday, February 18, 2007 in Cleveland, OH
Aircraft: Embraer ERJ-170, registration: N862RW
Injuries: 74 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On February 18, 2007, at 1506 eastern daylight time, an Embraer ERJ-170, N862RW, operated by Shuttle America, as Delta Connection flight 6448, was substantially damaged when it overrun the end of runway 28 (6,017 feet by 150 feet, snow covered) while landing at the Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE), Cleveland, Ohio. The airplane contacted the localizer antenna and a fence prior to coming to rest approximately 150 feet off the end of the runway. The captain, first officer, 2 flight attendants, and 70 passengers were not injured. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed and the flight was operating on an instrument flight plan. The scheduled passenger flight was operating under 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121. The flight originated from the Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL), Atlanta, Georgia, at 1331.

The first officer was flying the airplane at the time of the accident. The captain reported they were cleared for the ILS runway 24R approach. He stated that approximately 10 minutes prior to landing, air traffic control changed the landing runway to runway 28. The captain stated they were informed that the runway visual range (RVR) was 6,000 feet and that the braking action was fair. He reported that after passing the final approach fix, they were informed that the RVR had decreased to 2,000 feet. The captain stated he had the approach lights in sight and at 50 feet above the ground, he had the runway in sight. He stated the first officer then turned off the autopilot to land. The captain stated that at 30 feet above the ground he momentarily lost sight of the runway. He stated he then regained sight of the runway and the airplane was landed. He stated they encountered strong gusty winds during the landing flare and after touchdown they could barely see the runway lights and taxiway turn-offs. The captain reported that despite the use of full reverse and braking, the airplane did not seem to slow down. The airplane traveled off the runway and into the snow covered grass where the nose gear collapsed and the airplane came to rest. The crew and passengers deplaned using a ladder with assistance from the fire department.

The glideslope for the ILS runway 28 approach was unusable at the time of the accident due to the snow. The crew stated they were made aware of this by air traffic control when they were cleared for the approach to runway 28.

The weather reported at CLE at 1456 was: wind 300 degrees at 16 knots, 1/4 mile visibility, heavy snow, broken clouds at 600 feet, broken clouds at 1,500 feet, overcast clouds at 4,100 feet, temperature -7 degrees Celsius, dewpoint - 11 degrees Celsius, altimeter 30.01 inches of mercury.

The weather reported at CLE at 1517 was: wind 330 degrees at 13 knots gusting to 19 knots, 1/4 mile visibility, heavy snow, broken clouds at 300 feet, broken clouds at 1,000 feet, overcast clouds at 1,500 feet, temperature -8 degrees Celsius, dewpoint - 11 degrees Celsius, altimeter 30.03 inches of mercury.
 
So much for seeing the runway environment at 100' above TDZE. I would have thought that in the hour or so they waited on there they could have at least got their story to match the FARs
 
Just about every 121 operator has limitations about letting the FO fly/land with reduced vis. I would say that this limitation would apply.

What does Republic's SOP say?

A350
 
Just about every 121 operator has limitations about letting the FO fly/land with reduced vis. I would say that this limitation would apply.

A350

Probably most say 200 - 1/2.
This wasnt a CAT II approach.
 
If I had been the captain, it wouldn't have happened.
 
Last time I was on a Shuttle America jumpseat, both guys looked like they were in high school. When you get an airline job before you shave for the first time, these things happen.
 
Maybe the Captain was thinking his statement would hang the F/O?
 
If you read the article clearly, it doesn't say that 50 feet was the FIRST sight of the runway and approach lights. It says that at 50 feet when the autopilot was turned off by the first officer, the runway and approach lights were both in sight. They could have seen them a mile out at 300 feet or anywhere else for that matter according to that statement.

As for the whacktard with the highschooler comment, I personally know that the captain was in his mid 30's with exceptional experience and skills. Can't say about the FO though. It could happen to all of us just as easily.
 

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