80for80
global synchronizer
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2003
- Posts
- 313
http://www.adversity.net/united/default.htm
AFTER TKOF SFO RWY 28R, LOUD THUMPING NOISE ALONG WITH ACFT VIBRATION (FO FLYING). GEAR HAD JUST BEEN RETRACTED (APPROX 300 FT AGL). FIRST THOUGHT WAS TIRE FAILURE IN WHEEL WELL. SHORTLY THEREAFTER, #3 EGT BEGAN RAPID RISE ALONG WITH EGT WARNING. VIBRATION CONTINUED, FO STILL FLYING. I SHUT DOWN #3 (EGT APPROX 750 DEGS C). STOPPED EGT RISE AND VIBRATION. ASKED NON FLYING FO'S TO DO CHKLIST. RETURNED ATTN TO FLYING FO JUST AS STICK SHAKER COMMENCED. ALL 3 OTHER CREW MEMBERS TELLING HIM TO WATCH HIS SPD. SHORTLY THEREAFTER, WITH INTERMITTENT STICK SHAKER (SPD APPROX 160 KTS), RECEIVED GPWS WARNING, PULL UP, TERRAIN. TRACK HAD DRIFTED R OF PRESCRIBED COURSE FOR ENG OUT PROC. I TOOK OVER ACFT, PREVENTED STALL WHILE STILL ATTEMPTING TO CLB AND RETURN TO PRESCRIBED 295 DEG RADIAL OF VOR. TERRAIN WARNING INTERMITTENT (WE HAD ENTERED FOG AT DEP END OF RWY). BROKE OUT OF OVCST AT +/- 1000 FT MSL VFR CONDITIONS ON TOP. CLEANED UP ACFT, CLBED TO 5000 FT. RECEIVED DUMP VECTORS. DUMPED FUEL FOR APPROX 30 MINS. OPTED FOR OVERWT LNDG DUE TO FOG W OF ARPT. NORMAL 3 ENG APCH AND LNDG. GND EQUIP STANDING BY ADVISED EVERYTHING LOOKED NORMAL. TAXIED TO GATE. TKOF GROSS WT 860920 LBS. FUEL DUMPED TO 187000 LBS. FUEL 374000 LBS. BOEING 747-400. LNDG WT 670000 LBS. FO STATED HE FELT AS IF ACFT WAS NOT RESPONDING TO HIS INPUTS, WAS SURPRISED BY LACK OF PERFORMANCE AND DISTR BY STALL WARNING, ETC. PLEASE CALL FOR FURTHER INFO. MY ATTN SHOULD HAVE BEEN DIRECTED TO FO'S FLYING OF THE ACFT FIRST, THEN DEALING WITH ENG PROB. ALL THE VARIOUS ENG WARNINGS BROUGHT ME INTO THE COCKPIT INSTEAD OF HELPING FO FLY THE ACFT. SHOULD HAVE TAKEN OVER ACFT SOONER. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 406808: SOON AFTER LIFTOFF AT ABOUT 300-500 FT, THE #3 ENG BEGAN COMPRESSOR STALLING AND THE EGT ROSE TO 750 DEGS C (THE LIMIT FOR TKOF IS 650 DEGS C). THE THROTTLE WAS RETARDED TO IDLE AND AN EMER WAS DECLARED WHILE FLYING THE ACR'S 3 ENG PROFILE WITH 20 DEGS FLAPS AND A GROSS WT OF 864000 LBS. ON DEP, STICK SHAKER, GPWS WERE ANNUNCIATED. AFTER FLAPS WERE RETRACTED AND THE ACFT ACCELERATED, VECTORS FOR FUEL DUMPING WERE REQUESTED. AFTER FUEL DUMPING, WE WERE VECTORED TO AN ILS FOR RWY 28R AND AN OVERWT LNDG WAS MADE WITH 30 DEGS FLAPS. NO KNOWN INJURIES OR DAMAGE TO THE ACFT. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR WAS ACTING AS RELIEF PLT AND WAS SITTING IN THE SEAT BTWN THE CAPT AND FO. HE HAD A GOOD VIEW OF EVERYTHING GOING ON. FLC EXPERIENCED LOSS OF ENG PWR ON #3 DURING INITIAL CLBOUT. THE LOUD THUMPING NOISE AND VIBRATION OCCURRED AT 300-500 FT AGL. HE NOTICED THE FLYING FO LOST 40 KIAS DURING THE INITIAL CLBOUT. THE OTHER RELIEF PLT AND HE BOTH SHOUTED OUT LOUD 'AIRSPD.' THIS CALLOUT GOT THE CAPT'S ATTN AND HE TURNED BACK TO SEE THE AIRSPD LOW. HE THEN TOOK CTL OF THE ACFT, HELD THE ACFT LEVEL UNTIL THE AIRSPD PICKED UP. THERE WAS NO LOSS OF ALT. THEN THE FLC TOOK ACTION TO DUMP FUEL. THE FLC DUMPED 30000 LBS OF FUEL AND RETURNED TO LAND OVERWT AT 690000 LBS AT SFO. IT WAS NOT KNOWN EXACTLY WHAT CAUSED THE ENG TO FAIL. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 406322: I NOTED THE ACFT WAS HANDLING VERY SLUGGISH AND VERY SLOW TO CLB. INSTINCTIVELY, I PULLED THE NOSE UP JUST A BIT MORE TO CLB AWAY FROM THE GND. PERHAPS BY DOING THIS, AIRSPD WAS ALLOWED TO DECAY AND THUS THE STICK SHAKER SYS WAS ACTIVATED.
[From Reader "A", 2003]
I can think of another situation whereby I sat in the cockpit of UAL B-727 and a minority pilot was trying to pick up a clearance on the radio to Chicago (while on the ground). This is something that any pilot should be able to do in their sleep. This particular individual had to have the captain help him in what to say and how to pick the clearance up. I was amazed. It was terrible to watch this individual embarrass the remainder of the crew like this. Another time I was riding in the back of a UAL Airbus. I tuned into channel 5 to listen to the on board communications which is provided between the aircraft and air traffic control. Once again, another minority co-pilot was doing the best he could do on the radio with his broken English. It was truly unacceptable.
... [T] he story that a minority pilot who thought he was transferring fuel from one tank to the other when in actuality he was dumping the fuel overboard on a 747 going across the Atlantic ... I have heard them second hand from UAL pilots.[Also from Reader "A", 2003]
That is the incident [FAA report # 406810]. Based on this report, the co-pilot basically stalled the airplane. A few knots slower and he would have crashed the plane.
Here's the funny thing......a friend of mine who flies the 777 at UAL told me that this co-pilot from the above incident was suing UAL at the time due to the harassment that he received from the other pilots regarding this situation.
[Anonymous Telephone Conversation with a United Pilot, 2003]:
A new female captain was flying left seat with a check pilot in the right seat. They had to detour around thunderstorms on approach. She became so upset at the turbulence and lightning that she left the cockpit, telling her check captain "Thunderstorms really upset me." She left the captain alone in the cockpit and assisted the flight attendants in taking care of the passengers.
[From Reader "B", 1998]
I am a Captain with American Airlines, and have been employed since 1985. AA has recently been set upon by the EEOC for supposedly "not having enough minorities and women" in its pilot ranks.
The great majority of pilots have noticed a marked increase in women and minorities hired in the last 6 months, which has prompted mumblings about American "hiring only women and minorities."
... I recently flew with a co-pilot who also doubled as a training officer at our flight academy in Dallas/Ft. Worth. He told me that ... a great deal, if not the great majority, of instructors are incensed by the "trash" which is coming through the door as a result.
This is as much as I know about the situation, but similar tactics have been implemented in the past at United Airlines which have caused considerable problems in regards to the cohesiveness and quality of work life at that carrier. The reality is that we are simply hiring to satisfy an number, and obviously will not get the best product--which in my professional opinion is not only fool-hardy, but down right dangerous.
AFTER TKOF SFO RWY 28R, LOUD THUMPING NOISE ALONG WITH ACFT VIBRATION (FO FLYING). GEAR HAD JUST BEEN RETRACTED (APPROX 300 FT AGL). FIRST THOUGHT WAS TIRE FAILURE IN WHEEL WELL. SHORTLY THEREAFTER, #3 EGT BEGAN RAPID RISE ALONG WITH EGT WARNING. VIBRATION CONTINUED, FO STILL FLYING. I SHUT DOWN #3 (EGT APPROX 750 DEGS C). STOPPED EGT RISE AND VIBRATION. ASKED NON FLYING FO'S TO DO CHKLIST. RETURNED ATTN TO FLYING FO JUST AS STICK SHAKER COMMENCED. ALL 3 OTHER CREW MEMBERS TELLING HIM TO WATCH HIS SPD. SHORTLY THEREAFTER, WITH INTERMITTENT STICK SHAKER (SPD APPROX 160 KTS), RECEIVED GPWS WARNING, PULL UP, TERRAIN. TRACK HAD DRIFTED R OF PRESCRIBED COURSE FOR ENG OUT PROC. I TOOK OVER ACFT, PREVENTED STALL WHILE STILL ATTEMPTING TO CLB AND RETURN TO PRESCRIBED 295 DEG RADIAL OF VOR. TERRAIN WARNING INTERMITTENT (WE HAD ENTERED FOG AT DEP END OF RWY). BROKE OUT OF OVCST AT +/- 1000 FT MSL VFR CONDITIONS ON TOP. CLEANED UP ACFT, CLBED TO 5000 FT. RECEIVED DUMP VECTORS. DUMPED FUEL FOR APPROX 30 MINS. OPTED FOR OVERWT LNDG DUE TO FOG W OF ARPT. NORMAL 3 ENG APCH AND LNDG. GND EQUIP STANDING BY ADVISED EVERYTHING LOOKED NORMAL. TAXIED TO GATE. TKOF GROSS WT 860920 LBS. FUEL DUMPED TO 187000 LBS. FUEL 374000 LBS. BOEING 747-400. LNDG WT 670000 LBS. FO STATED HE FELT AS IF ACFT WAS NOT RESPONDING TO HIS INPUTS, WAS SURPRISED BY LACK OF PERFORMANCE AND DISTR BY STALL WARNING, ETC. PLEASE CALL FOR FURTHER INFO. MY ATTN SHOULD HAVE BEEN DIRECTED TO FO'S FLYING OF THE ACFT FIRST, THEN DEALING WITH ENG PROB. ALL THE VARIOUS ENG WARNINGS BROUGHT ME INTO THE COCKPIT INSTEAD OF HELPING FO FLY THE ACFT. SHOULD HAVE TAKEN OVER ACFT SOONER. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 406808: SOON AFTER LIFTOFF AT ABOUT 300-500 FT, THE #3 ENG BEGAN COMPRESSOR STALLING AND THE EGT ROSE TO 750 DEGS C (THE LIMIT FOR TKOF IS 650 DEGS C). THE THROTTLE WAS RETARDED TO IDLE AND AN EMER WAS DECLARED WHILE FLYING THE ACR'S 3 ENG PROFILE WITH 20 DEGS FLAPS AND A GROSS WT OF 864000 LBS. ON DEP, STICK SHAKER, GPWS WERE ANNUNCIATED. AFTER FLAPS WERE RETRACTED AND THE ACFT ACCELERATED, VECTORS FOR FUEL DUMPING WERE REQUESTED. AFTER FUEL DUMPING, WE WERE VECTORED TO AN ILS FOR RWY 28R AND AN OVERWT LNDG WAS MADE WITH 30 DEGS FLAPS. NO KNOWN INJURIES OR DAMAGE TO THE ACFT. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR WAS ACTING AS RELIEF PLT AND WAS SITTING IN THE SEAT BTWN THE CAPT AND FO. HE HAD A GOOD VIEW OF EVERYTHING GOING ON. FLC EXPERIENCED LOSS OF ENG PWR ON #3 DURING INITIAL CLBOUT. THE LOUD THUMPING NOISE AND VIBRATION OCCURRED AT 300-500 FT AGL. HE NOTICED THE FLYING FO LOST 40 KIAS DURING THE INITIAL CLBOUT. THE OTHER RELIEF PLT AND HE BOTH SHOUTED OUT LOUD 'AIRSPD.' THIS CALLOUT GOT THE CAPT'S ATTN AND HE TURNED BACK TO SEE THE AIRSPD LOW. HE THEN TOOK CTL OF THE ACFT, HELD THE ACFT LEVEL UNTIL THE AIRSPD PICKED UP. THERE WAS NO LOSS OF ALT. THEN THE FLC TOOK ACTION TO DUMP FUEL. THE FLC DUMPED 30000 LBS OF FUEL AND RETURNED TO LAND OVERWT AT 690000 LBS AT SFO. IT WAS NOT KNOWN EXACTLY WHAT CAUSED THE ENG TO FAIL. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 406322: I NOTED THE ACFT WAS HANDLING VERY SLUGGISH AND VERY SLOW TO CLB. INSTINCTIVELY, I PULLED THE NOSE UP JUST A BIT MORE TO CLB AWAY FROM THE GND. PERHAPS BY DOING THIS, AIRSPD WAS ALLOWED TO DECAY AND THUS THE STICK SHAKER SYS WAS ACTIVATED.
Comments and Details from Readers
(by email, fax and telephone)
(edited to protect the authors' anonymity)
I sure wish the public was more informed on the qualifications of many UAL pilots. It is not fair to the public that UAL has hired and placed these incompetent and inexperienced individuals in such a responsible position for the lives of so many.(by email, fax and telephone)
(edited to protect the authors' anonymity)
[From Reader "A", 2003]
I can think of another situation whereby I sat in the cockpit of UAL B-727 and a minority pilot was trying to pick up a clearance on the radio to Chicago (while on the ground). This is something that any pilot should be able to do in their sleep. This particular individual had to have the captain help him in what to say and how to pick the clearance up. I was amazed. It was terrible to watch this individual embarrass the remainder of the crew like this. Another time I was riding in the back of a UAL Airbus. I tuned into channel 5 to listen to the on board communications which is provided between the aircraft and air traffic control. Once again, another minority co-pilot was doing the best he could do on the radio with his broken English. It was truly unacceptable.
... [T] he story that a minority pilot who thought he was transferring fuel from one tank to the other when in actuality he was dumping the fuel overboard on a 747 going across the Atlantic ... I have heard them second hand from UAL pilots.
[Another United Pilot verified this incident in a telephone conversation with me:
"A new female captain was flying left seat in a 737 with a check captain in the right seat. He noticed the wing tanks were imbalanced, and told her to balance them. She accomplished this task much faster than standard protocol would allow, and he asked her how she did that. "I dumped the fuel [into the atmosphere] from the fuller tank"!]
"A new female captain was flying left seat in a 737 with a check captain in the right seat. He noticed the wing tanks were imbalanced, and told her to balance them. She accomplished this task much faster than standard protocol would allow, and he asked her how she did that. "I dumped the fuel [into the atmosphere] from the fuller tank"!]
That is the incident [FAA report # 406810]. Based on this report, the co-pilot basically stalled the airplane. A few knots slower and he would have crashed the plane.
Here's the funny thing......a friend of mine who flies the 777 at UAL told me that this co-pilot from the above incident was suing UAL at the time due to the harassment that he received from the other pilots regarding this situation.
[Anonymous Telephone Conversation with a United Pilot, 2003]:
A new female captain was flying left seat with a check pilot in the right seat. They had to detour around thunderstorms on approach. She became so upset at the turbulence and lightning that she left the cockpit, telling her check captain "Thunderstorms really upset me." She left the captain alone in the cockpit and assisted the flight attendants in taking care of the passengers.
[From Reader "B", 1998]
I am a Captain with American Airlines, and have been employed since 1985. AA has recently been set upon by the EEOC for supposedly "not having enough minorities and women" in its pilot ranks.
The great majority of pilots have noticed a marked increase in women and minorities hired in the last 6 months, which has prompted mumblings about American "hiring only women and minorities."
... I recently flew with a co-pilot who also doubled as a training officer at our flight academy in Dallas/Ft. Worth. He told me that ... a great deal, if not the great majority, of instructors are incensed by the "trash" which is coming through the door as a result.
This is as much as I know about the situation, but similar tactics have been implemented in the past at United Airlines which have caused considerable problems in regards to the cohesiveness and quality of work life at that carrier. The reality is that we are simply hiring to satisfy an number, and obviously will not get the best product--which in my professional opinion is not only fool-hardy, but down right dangerous.
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