PSA ALPA vs US Airways ALPA

[vc10]

This is hurting all of US Airways, from mainline down to the wholly-owneds.

PSA delays CRJ700 deployment as pilots dispute erupts
Darren Shannon, Washington DC (05May04, 00:17 GMT, 292 words)


A dispute between PSA pilots and US Airways has stalled the launch of the regional airline’s Bombardier CRJ700 aircraft.

The two sides this week began two weeks of talks to discuss who will crew the new 70-seat aircraft, a debate that has festered since US Airways last year said its CRJ700s and Embraer 170 aircraft would be only crewed by furloughed mainline pilots under the carrier’s jets-for-jobs program.

Pilots at US Airways’ legacy regional affiliates - wholly-owned subsidiaries Allegheny Airlines, Piedmont Airlines and PSA - have contended the legality of this policy since that decision. It is understood that PSA’s Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) representatives this week also argued that their last contract revision, which allowed a 50:50 split between PSA and mainline pilots on the carrier’s 50-seater CRJ200 aircraft, should now apply to the 70-seat aircraft.

It is also understood that the PSA pilots are contesting all pilot training on the CRJ700s until the dispute is resolved.

US Airways and ALPA decline to comment on the ongoing talks.

US Airways does, however, confirm that the two CRJ700s delivered this year are still grounded, and currently being used for training. As the CRJ700s are new to US Airways’ fleet, this training includes all aspects of airline operations, not just flight crew upgrades.

These latest talks do not include the 76-seat Embraer 170 aircraft currently operating at US Airways’ newly launch MidAtlantic Airways subsidiary.

PSA took delivery of it first CRJ700 aircraft in March. A US airways spokesman says the ongoing talks have not affected its delivery schedule.

US Airways last year openly discussed circumventing the CRJ700 problem by diverting all orders to Mesa Air Group. However, this deal has collapsed. Mesa still operates smaller jet for the US Airways Express network.


Source: Air Transport Intelligence news

 

[BFE]

PSA ALPA vs US Airways ALPA???

Impossible, we're all ALPA right ?

 

[skeezer]

It is also understood that the PSA pilots are contesting all pilot training on the CRJ700s until the dispute is resolved.

Umm, I don't think so. Both PSA and J4J pilots were scheduled to go to differences training this month in a 50/50 ratio. It was the PSA management that cancelled the training, NOT our MEC.

If this dispute is hurting all of US Airways then the Mainline MEC needs to get off it's high horse and let them fly 50/50. Otherwise, f*ck it!

Skeezer

 

[Smoking Man]

PSA never agreed to any staffing ratio of the 700 aircraft. U alpa and U mgt agreed with each other about staffing the aircraft at 100% apl pilots. To make it fair, PSA should get to staff an equal number of airbus at Mainline.

With skeezer on this, 50/50 or parkem.

 

[NEWSOUTH]

PARK'UM

PARK'UM BOYS. PREDATORY AT BEST.

 

[Dr.Hwang]

Well let's see, 2% of my 20, or 2% of dad's 200, I wonder where the loyalties are. Organized crime is organized crime is organized crime. I wish nothing but the best for the PSA pilot group.

 

[Heavy Set]

It probably won't matter. USAirways debt was downgraded today. This will complicate financing for any new aircraft in the future - interest expense on any debt (or lease payments) will be higher due to increased risk related to the downgrade. Add to that the rising fuel costs, the entry of SWA into PHL, and the lack of airline experience at the top (a gosh-dang Investment Banker is running the joint) - you got a recipe for a negative outcome. Sure the airline analysts don't know everything, but they are all unanimous on this one - it doesn't look good...

Who knows how this will impact the regionals? Mesa will likely activate its "top secret" 737-300 operation and Skywest apparently is interested in the Shuttle (I still think not likely if it has to compete directly with DAL). Virgin America might buy some assets while ATA could move its new 717 operation into PIT or CLT. Sorry to say it, but if I were a flying USAirways pilot, I'd get the resume ready... The situation doesn't look good for anyone involved (except maybe the MidAtlantic EMB-170 pilots who will get picked up by Jet Blue to eventually fly their EMB-190s)... Read the latest below:

US Airways downgrade threatens big aircraft deal
Wednesday May 5, 5:41 pm ET
By John Crawley


WASHINGTON, May 5 (Reuters) - US Airways Group Inc. (NasdaqNM:UAIR - News) hit more damaging turbulence on Wednesday when its corporate credit rating spiraled deeper into junk and threatened the huge aircraft financing deal underpinning its restructuring.

Standard & Poor's downgraded the airline's debt to CCC+ from B- and attached a negative outlook just days before US Airways confronts the biggest single challenge to its survival -- the arrival of Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV - News) at its Philadelphia hub.

"The downgrade was based on the difficult challenge faced by US Airways as it seeks to rapidly lower its operating expenses in response to mounting pressure from low-cost competitors," Standard & Poor's analyst Philip Baggaley said in a statement.

Low-cost powerhouse Southwest is poised to enter the Philadelphia market on Sunday, invading a top revenue-producing city for Arlington, Va.-based US Airways, which emerged from bankruptcy a year ago only to find the path to viability more difficult than imagined.

"The economics are getting uglier by the minute," said Mike Boyd of the Boyd aviation consulting group in Colorado.

Anticipation of the downgrade prompted US Airways to ask General Electric (NYSE:GE - News) Capital Aviation Services to amend their agreement for financing a portion of the massive jet order that underpins the airline's restructuring strategy.

A rating below 'B-' triggers an option for the GE unit to withdraw from the agreement to back the Embraer (Sao Paolo:EMBR3.SA - News) and Bombardier Inc (Toronto:BBDb.TO - News) aircraft ordered a year ago with much fanfare.

The original order was for 170 jets worth an estimated $4.3 billion with Embraer and Bombardier also providing financing. So far, US Airways has received 22 planes from Bombardier - mainly 50 seat jets -- and eight 72-seaters from Embraer.

Joseph Nadol, an analyst with JP Morgan, said in a research note that GE Capital Aviation Services does $2.7 billion worth of business with US Airways. He and other analysts said GE would carefully weigh the cost of withdrawing from the order on the rest of its business with the airline.

David Castelveter, a US Airways spokesman, said the discussions with GE capital unit are ongoing and he would not characterize them or predict an outcome. A spokesman for the GE Capital Aviation Services also confirmed the talks but offered no additional comment.

US Airways closed 12 cents lower on the Nasdaq to $2.31 ashare.

Additional reporting by Kathy Fieweger in Chicago.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

PSA never agreed to any staffing ratio of the 700 aircraft. U alpa and U mgt agreed with each other about staffing the aircraft at 100% apl pilots. To make it fair, PSA should get to staff an equal number of airbus at Mainline.

With skeezer on this, 50/50 or parkem.

Um, Smoking.....PSA is staffing an equal number of Airbus's (Airbi ???).....Why do you think there are so many in the desert?

Make no mistake, the only reason these 70 seat RJ's even exist is to directly replace their mainline counterparts that are on an extended camping trip in Mohave. These RJ's do not constitute growth....simply outsourcing of higher paid ALPA positions. (Some would say it looks very "Freedomish" in a sick Lorenzo way)


By the way, according to Mainline MEC reps, PSA's MEC is the one that shot down the 50/50 staffing on the 70 seaters! Of course I trust that crowd only as far as I can throw them.

 

[328dude]

Hmmm, mainline Reps blaming the PSA MEC for this mess? Sounds just like them. THe reason the PSA MEC shot down the 50/50 ratio was because they wanted the senority as a trade off. Pretty much placing all PSA pilot's underneath them. How would you like to have someone with 5 month's senority bid over someone that has been there 10 years. You see the problem then. Of course, mainline reps won't tell you the whole story.

We could all quit and they would still want our wives.......

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

how would you like to have someone with 5 month's senority bid over someone that has been there 10 years. You see the problem then. Of course, mainline reps won't tell you the whole story.

Well since they took my airplane away so they could give rj's to you.......can I have my old PSA Sen number back?

If you want to be fair about it, Each and every one of the rj's that is bought by Airways, 50 seat or otherwise should go to mainline until each and every one of the 1879 furloughed pilots is back flying.

But I doubt you would like that idea either. Like it or not you are flying somebody elses work. And at 20 mil (or so)a pop those jets of "yours" are not being bought by PSA. Jetstream (PSA) had a hard enough time coming up with the loot for the 25 328's.......but you probably were not around for that.

And yes I would feel the same way if I was still driving the dork. What is happening now with the rj issue nationwide will eventually destroy the "High paying" airline jobs.....so enjoy your 70 seaters, it is likely that your current payscale is close to what you will retire with.

Just to clarify, I passed on the J4J at PSA, Didn't need it, currently flying a much better gig. So I really don't have a dog in this fight. But I am stating the obvious that most of you guys seemed to miss. What the company is doing to mainline by using PSA, and MDA is the same as if they started parking your RJ's and 328's and transferred your flying to MESA. (Which it looks like that may not be too far away with the financing problems. After all you PSA guys are just paid way too much, and MESA will fly it cheaper,and buy the planes.)

We (the airline pilot) are in a death spiral here, and managment is laughing all the way to the bank.

Do you realize that a good car salesman in a decent sized city makes more annually than an RJ Captain does? I should know I was one for a while right after furlough.....In 10 months I made more selling cars than I did the last 12 months of left seat in the 328!!

We all need to ask ourselves if 60 Grand a year is what we went to 4 years of school, and another 5 to 10 of "paying dues" for?

Something to ponder.......

Regards,

Snorter
Lazy Corporate Pilot, and loving the 20 days off a month!!

 

[I.P. Freley]

>>>And yes I would feel the same way if I was still driving the dork.<<<

Liar.

 

[Dash8301]

You mainline boys need to put your crack pipes down. he wholly ownes told you all from the start 50/50. If you had signed the orginal flow through back in th mid 1990's you could have done what Coex did and flowed back just as we would eventually flow through. Instead you put up these bogas scope rues and all of you "small jets" went to the contract carriers. They in turn lower the bar for perfomace and pay themselves less than the burger flippers at McD's. Which makes us have to fight even harder to maintain a decent contract. Meanwhile you go on as it's just a scooter trash problem. If you would have allowed us to have jets in the early 1990's we could be like comair and you could be like Delta. But no you want your cake and et it to. Well this is your S*&t sandwich take a bite.

 

[328dude]

Snorter:

Thank you for proving my point of the mainline mentality for the mainline guys. I am sorry that your furloughed and glad you have found another gig that you enjoy better, but not everyone is as fortunate as you. The wholly owned did not start this problem or even create it. You mainline dude's could have avoided this years ago and as my brother Dash has said, waived your preverbial red flag and told us to shove it.

Don't expect PSA pilot's or the other whooly owned (to some extent) to role over and let you play with our d1cks...

 

[Lequip]

Just close the doors at that entire crap hole of an airline. Why keep putting it off? Wont be long before USAir and all of it's feeders are shut down for good. Let the weak be weeded out and the survivors will get stronger.

 

[Lequip]

a

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

You boys are so pissed off at everyone that nobody is really looking at what is happening.

True, the problem started a long time ago....a lot farther back than you know. So far back I doubt that there is anyone left at mainline that was there! Back in the late 60's Allegheny pioneered (And I use the term loosly) the regional carriers, Prior to that if you flew with an airlines paint job you were with that airline.

But managment came to the pilots and told them that they were going to trade thier CV 580's in for nice shiny new DC-9's if they would only let them farm out the small airports that the 580's now serve. And not unlike now, they did, only now the 580's are 328's and the 9's are RJ's. Thus the disease was born, it was now possible to pit groups from the same company against each other and they have been doing it ever since.

You always have fun beating up on the big bad mainline boys, but the truth is, most of us would rather there be no wholly owned carriers at all.......it should be all one list. Flow thru that you like using as your battle cry is simply a different strain of the same disease, not a cure.

These RJ's should have been the cure to the problem, done right all rj's nationwide should have gone to the mainlines, and all W/O pilots should have been rolled into their parent companies. Had every airline held their original scope clauses from the early 70's of "No jet powered A/C anywhere but mainline" then we would not be having this discussion.

As it is, you have every tom dick and harry flying RJ's undercutting not only the mainlines but yourselves and the problem is a monster. It has now gotten so bad that the term RJ can now be applied to DC-9's and 717's. We are now flying mainline aircraft for turboprop rates nationwide. And the few high paid airline pilot left are too greedy to take a payscale that would work to be profitable, so we now have the haves.....and the never will haves.

Your average Citation or Beechjet driver now gets paid better than an airline pilot flying a 100 seater does, and only works 1/3 of the time.

What it comes down to is that we have the mainline MEC jerk-offs, fighting with the W/O MEC jerk-offs about all this crap, bickering about 20 seats this and gross weight that instead of confronting the core problem of the airlines being dissected like a science class frog.

Had scope at all carriers been completly held, you would now be an airline pilot flying an RJ with your bid in for the 75 or 73 or whatever your senority would hold next. Instead we are fighting about what job will be outsourced next.

Believe me, the feelings of the bottom half of the mainline pilot list is not well looked upon by the MEC half of the list, most of us came from the regionals and would love to see it changed. I fear we have traveled too far to ever salvage it now, especially when 70 and 90 seaters start going to the regionals. Which they are.

So feel free to get pissed and blame me for all your problems, I really don't care. But if we continue on this path, you can be sure you will never see that big airline paycheck in your career. The guys that retired a few years ago were the last of that breed. And Comair is not the model by which you want to base your career on, they are probably only another contract payscale raise away from being outsourced to the next lowest bidder.

Regards,

Former W/O pilot now Furloughed mainline whipping boy, and too disgusted to give a crap anymore.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Great post, snorter.

I retract my "liar" comment. Just having a little fun.

Surely, as a former regional pilot you do see the irony of mainline pilots typically seeing the regionals as taking their jobs (which then rolls downhill to WO pilots seeing contract carriers as stealing THEIR jobs)? If only the most senior of all pilots around the country (and those who are now past 60 and retired) had held the line in the last 30 years, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's not our fault, it's not your fault, it's nobody's fault...

Well, the people whose fault it is aren't around anymore, I guess. Now we're stuck with it.

*sigh*

 

[NoName]

i cant believe it guys, the answer was right under our nose the whole time, give everything back to mainline!

when can we start blaming the lcc for greyhounding flying and changing everything about the biz.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Noname,

Think about what you said. You don't see SWA RJ's running around and I doubt you ever will. If you take away managments ability to pit the pilot groups against each other and fly the RJ for dirt bag wages, Managment then no longer wants to fly the large numbers of said RJ's, They cost too much to operate and don't haul the loads needed.

And the LCC's are now the premier ones to work for. It appears that JBLU is going to keep their RJ's inhouse......we can only hope that the rest of the carriers follow suit or all of us will be remembered as an experiment gone bad in the next edition of Flying the Line.

One interesting thing to note is that there is not a single airline that stands alone without using someones elses name that flies 100% RJ's. Not even Independance Air is going to go at it with nothing but their RJ's. That alone should show that the RJ is not something that an airline can survive on by itsself. Take the crap wages out of the RJ equasion and they do not make economical sense.

Then maybe we can all get back to being a "United", "American" or whatever pilot instead of being "Those SOB's that are undercutting and destroying the career"


Regards,

Snorter

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

JEEEEEEZUS! What a f$%ck%ed up mess USAir has become. If it were not for the Regional pilots, I would be hoping they go under, and the sooner the better. I wish there were a way for U mainline to go bust and spare the Regional pilots who have had to take it up the arse.


What the U mainline pilots have done is evil, plane and simple.

u HAS BECOME A JOKE.


..and thats all I got to say about that...