PFT-Let it fly!

[uscpilot]

Point is that no matter what you or anyone else thinks or believes is right or ethical, a pilots seniority number is the most valuable thing he/she has.

As far as doing it the way it has always been done, that is the biggest crock of Sh** i have heard. There are few things done in this world today, they way they were done years ago.

Conclusion
My seniority number will be higher than yours and that is all that matters

Dear weasel,
The point that you are missing is that people on interview boards may have a problem with PFT. They might see it as perpetuating an evil by hiring a PFTer. Be sure to tell the interviewer when they question you about your choice to PFT that their opinoion is a "crock of Sh**", I am sure it will go over real well. Knowing this how are you going to get this all important senority number? The most important thing a pilot can have is a back bone and their dignity. You have neither.
When this "tragedy" happens I hope you are #251.
Jetman, you are a weasel, woops already said that, oh well it need to be said.
usc
PS My senority number will be higher than yours.

 

[flyifrvfr]

and also we could throw in all Commercial Truck Driving Inst. I guess they exploit the system too. lol
by the way, Im a bus driver, am I nobody. lol [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm also a Tractor Trailer Driver who had to pay my dues driving crap equipment and the worst runs before I could get the experience to work for a real company.We can clearly see how aviation compares to truck driving.You pay your dues as a flight instructor after paying for the ratings to make you a CFI.You than fly crappy twins in all kinds of weather to build twin time.Then you get hired to fly for real companies,not by PFT.

 

[Lucky]

Take this into consideration

John
Year 2006- Starts flying
2007- Has private inst. commercial
2008- Has CFI, CFII, MEI
2008 to 2011- 3 years of instruction and 1,500 hrs with 200 Multi
2011 Gets hierd by airline X with a seniority number of 251

Bob
Year 2009-2010Starts flying does private, inst, multi-commecial and does GS program.
Year 2011 finishes program and gets hired by Airline X with a seniority number of 250

Year 2015 tragedy strikes and Airline X has to due cuts to 250 pilots.

heres a little more realistic timeframe for the non- pft pilot.

Larry
Starts in 2009-2010 has pvt, inst, CSEL, CMEL, CFI, CFII, MEI.
2010-2011. Works for a year as an IP. leaves over 1000TT 150ME making more as an Instructor than a GS Sca... err...."pilot" isnt let go with only 550- 600TT 250 SIC hours when the airlines want to see PIC and no new ratings and an addtional $23,000 bill for nothing.
2011 Hired at a Regional flying jet equipment earning well over $25K their first year as an F.O. and all without the Stigma of PFT.

 

[tmwunder]

Dean,

I am in your situation. I want to get the best flying job in as little as possible. I have only 200 total hours and have debated which way to go.... go with ATP and get 200 hours really quick or go the FBO route. I have not yet made my decision, but I am 80% sure I am going to go the FBO route. The reason for this is because look at the experienced pilot's responses. You have to give the guys who are there the credit and listen to them. Ya it would be great if I could pay 35G and get my pilot job. That is only looking at the short term. Look at the long term. My decision to go the FBO route is because of the responses from the people that are there! You can think in your head all I have to do is spend a lot of money and get the time and I will make it faster, but you are not looking 10 years down the road. Like I said before I am in your same boat, but I am not looking at next year or the year after (I am only 24 and also have a college degree, and also had a great job the last two years) and I have decided I will put in my time and I truely believe it will pay off within 10 years. Yes you may have a better job than me in the next few years, but how about if we have this same conversation in 10 years? I don't know maybe you will.... but I like my chances.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Amen...

350Driver,

I have not agreed with you on a couple of your posts on other threads, but I have to agree with everything you are saying on this PFT issue. Any of you newbies reading pay close attention to 350's post.


Hey TZRav8r,

How 'bout a link or PM to your avatar, way too cool.

 

[TZRav8r]

A great site! Enjoy!
Link

 

[pilotyip]

PFT is OK

Your views of PFT are too narrow. A retiring AF officer has not flown in five years, desk jobs at the end of his career, he wants to fly but gets the "you are not current blow off", he has 3500 hours in C-130's, he looks at the GS PFT as a way to get back into the job market. He has a rich uncle that will pay for his training, (USAF retirement), PFT may be ok for him, Army WO gets out after 7 yrs, 1500 hours H-60 time, 45 hours fixed wing, he gets the blow off "You are not a real pilot no fixed wing time blow off", he looks at the GS PFT as a way to get into the job market. He has saved 45K to pay for this from his Army pay. I was a 10K, 7K MEL turbine hour pilot, Navy trained, previous 121 pilot, who looked at PFT at three companies, (see previous posts), in 1996, I did not take the jobs for a variety of reasons that had nothing to do with PFT. I could have afforded it and it opened doors. Bottom line, PFT has a place, and some highly qualified people can benefit from it, and it not for anyone on this board to judge those who pursue their career through PFT. I have hired one PFT, and he was low time and he flew rings around many of his higher time non-PFT classmates.

 

[bobbysamd]

No, it is not okay

Your views of PFT are too narrow. A retiring AF officer has not flown in five years, desk jobs at the end of his career, he wants to fly but gets the "you are not current blow off", he has 3500 hours in C-130's, he looks at the GS PFT as a way to get back into the job market. He has a rich uncle that will pay for his training, (USAF retirement), PFT may be ok for him, Army WO gets out after 7 yrs, 1500 hours H-60 time, 45 hours fixed wing, he gets the blow off "You are not a real pilot no fixed wing time blow off", he looks at the GS PFT as a way to get into the job market.

Baloney.

For one thing, these folks already have an advantage over the ordinary Joe. They are former military pilots. Formrer military pilots go to the head of the line every time in any hiring situation. (I won't use "cut in line"- it is not the same as P-F-T-cutting-in-line.) Airlines still prefer military pilots, in any guise, over civilian pilots. A military pilot could be completely uncurrent but if H.R. sees military quals H.R.'s attention has been obtained.

Having said all that, it's a waste of time for most anyone to apply for a flying job if he/she is not current. So, what's stopping any of these folks from trundling down to their local airport, getting with an instructor, and getting current again? Just for fun, let's say it would cost $150 an hour for airplane and instructor, and he/she needs twenty hours to get current again. Do the math. That's an expenditure of $3K. Much cheaper than $45K P-F-T tuition - and it avoids that stigma.

As far as rotor guys go, what's stopping them from getting some fixed-wing hours, initially through instructing or whatever? Your H-60 pilot example already has 1500 hours - perhaps enough to get his/her ATP. He/she would be good to go once he/she has a few fixed-wing hours in the logbook.

No. P-F-T is never acceptable.

 

[de727ups]

I don't know

I don't see how one being willing to pay for a job that is normally a paid job helps to improve conditions for professional pilots in the industry. In fact, it could lead to management asking for these sort of payment for a job schemes to become the norm. Since pilot YIP is management and anti-union, I can see why he feels the way he does. Pilot YIP, maybe USA jet should work a deal like Gulfstream or TAB express. You might be able to put some money in your pocket.

 

[deadstick]

Re: No, it is not okay

As far as rotor guys go, what's stopping them from getting some fixed-wing hours, initially through instructing or whatever? Your H-60 pilot example already has 1500 hours - perhaps enough to get his/her ATP. He/she would be good to go once he/she has a few fixed-wing hours in the logbook.[/B]

bobbysmad,

I have to disagree with you on this. A few fixed-wing hours?? That pilot with 1500RW/45FW is a 45 hr pilot in the eyes of places like Express Jet. They ask for ONLY FW hours and there was no place on the weed-out application for specialized training, like military flight school. It's just been in the last couple of years, thanks in large part to APTAP that military helicopter pilots have gotten a shot at the regionals. The attitude towards helo pilots was (is) disgusting. The regionals are not the only ones. Some freight operators only look at FW hours, too. So, after sombody "pays their dues" flying for our military, they should spend another 2 years "paying their dues" to the Cessna 172 students of America because they are "not a real pilot?" No way. People who think RW hours aren't as good as FW hours don't know what they are talking about. If you don't believe me, go find a helo school and go on a demo flight.

 

[pilotyip]

RW time is great

Four years ago when there was a real experience shortage, we talked our insurance company into allowing 100% of RW time towards mins, and 50% of MERW towards MEL mins, we hired four Helo guys with less than 100 civ FW, and they blew away their hi time FW civilian counter parts in training. The military routinely makes FW pilots out of RW pilots going from the H-53 to the C-9 in the reserves in one example I know of. RW guys make great pilots, They make great Capt.'s also, because they have alot of experience in a two-man cockpit and understand the Capt.'s leadership position. This something alot of single pilots PIC's have problems with. It is too bad there is so much stupidly in the airline hiring front office, with there FW mind set.

 

[bobbysamd]

Rotor time

A few fixed-wing hours?? That pilot with 1500RW/45FW is a 45 hr pilot in the eyes of places like Express Jet . . . . The attitude towards helo pilots was (is) disgusting . . . . People who think RW hours aren't as good as FW hours don't know what they are talking about. If you don't believe me, go find a helo school and go on a demo flight.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I had two students who were rotor pilots. One had his Private Airplane and came to me to add Instrument Airplane to his ticket. He was excellent. The other was an AR rotor pilot. He became an excellent airplane pilot. I recall one other student who had helo experience. He, too, was a fine airplane pilot.

Maybe I should clarify by what I mean by "a few" hours. How about something like 200-500? In any event, P-F-T is not the answer - and there are other companies besides Express Jet. Not that Mesa is an answer, either, but I recall it was open-minded about rotor time; in fact, the rotor pilot I trained for Private was one of my MAPD students.

 

[The_Russian]

I'm Back!!

I am sure that within 24hrs I will be moterated out, so most of you will not get to read what I have to say. I think it has something to due with the fact that Senior members on this thread fear the fact that I can present facts and not a jealous opinion.

Whatever.

Most of the Anti-PFT posters on this thread have no actual knowledge of the programs being discussed. Therefore I would not take any advice they present here. In fact a very small percentage of the people in the aviation industry view any kind of acceleraterd training program as a "bad thing".

Opinion: Gulfstream and other similar programs buy you a job.

Fact: You pay for the experiance and the finest real world training available in the aviation industry. After you are done, YOU must get a job at an airline.

For some pilots that means getting their CFI and instructing. Some will never return to the industry. Some will get an interview and be terminated within the first few months. No matter what route you take, the "system" will weed out the weak.

To say that pilots in these programs have little knowledge and skill is an uneducated statement. If you take any route to the big jet job (CFI or PFT), you will find people who are competent and those who are inept.

As for the military it's too bad I could not go that route, my vision is not good enough. So now you can't give me a bad rap for that because I tried that route. Genetics suck.

Personally, I have spent 3 years as a flight instructor, a fueler, a free SIC CE-550 pilot and recently a college student. I have paid my dues. I am still paying my dues. I will be paying my dues until I am Captain of an aircraft somewhere. I have chosen an airline training program now. I will be paying a lot of money to fly a commuter turboprop, but when I finish the program I will have real world 121 turbine experiance. Even though I will be in debt, I still have spent less than my fellow Comair and Flightsafety pilots who can't even get jobs as CFI's.

My advice to those who care about their future:

Do not listen to people who are negative about anything in this industry. Be positive and work hard. If you chose an airline training program such as Gulfstream, TAB, or Mesa, don't make it your only way in. Get you CFI and instruct on the side. Rent airplanes or do a multi-engine time building program also. Plan on having at least 1000 hours before you finish your taining program. I know for a fact that you've got the time on you hands to fly elsewhere. If you are a good stick and a good person you will get a job sooner than you think. Keep paying your dues how you feel they should be paid, not how a handful of people think that you should. Their twisted sense of reality is blinded by jealousy, their own faults, and their inabilities. Good luck.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Most of the Anti-PFT posters on this thread have no actual knowledge of the programs being discussed. Therefore I would not take any advice they present here. In fact a very small percentage of the people in the aviation industry view any kind of acceleraterd training program as a "bad thing".

I believe the word you want is "accelerated."

No, pal, in and of itself, accelerated training is not necessarily bad. Most airline training is accelerated. Whether P-F-T is accelerated is irrelevant and immaterial.

Anyone with means, or even with a loan, can write a check and get into a P-F-T program - and probably be pushed through so the school can collect full tuition. More on that below. With P-F-T, experience does not matter. Your money does. Which would seem to obviate your point about obtaining other experience besides your paid-for experience. In other words, "I have P-F-T. I have 121 'experience.' Isn't 121 experience all I need?? Why should I need 'other' experience?"

Opinion: Gulfstream and other similar programs buy you a job.

Fact: You pay for the experiance and the finest real world training available in the aviation industry. After you are done, YOU must get a job at an airline.

The facts about "buying a job" are set forth on the Gulfstream FAQ page:

2. Will I really get paid while I'm flying co-pilot during the 250 programmed hours?

Answer: Yes, you will be paid, $8.00 per flight hour, commencing when you have completed the Initial Operating Experience requirement, for the balance of the 250 hours.

I assume that federal income taxes, FICA and Medicare are deducted, or are the wages paid under the table? Therefore, this is a job, as a required flight crew member, nothing more or nothing less, for which the P-F-Ter paid. There are your facts.

Another tidbit from the FAQ:

7. Does the total amount have to be paid up front?

Answer: Yes, the accelerated admission or the standard admission deposit must be paid in advance. The balance is due on the first day of the IFR refresher which is held on the second Monday of each month.

Followup FAQs from me: Are students who clearly will not complete training washed out promptly so they have a chance of being refunded "tuition"? Probably not. The school will say it wants to give them a chance to succeed. The truth is that Gulfstream wants to earn as much revenue off their tuition as possible. Any refunds paid to P-F-T students who wash out? Possibly. How quickly are refunds given? Probably not very. Will I have to sue and/or contact the State's Attorney to enforce my refund rights? Probably.

The only comment with which I agree is:

Be positive and work hard.

If you do both, you'll get your chance without having to resort to the P-F-T crutch.

 

[The_Russian]

ACCELERATED

There are you happy. The only thing you seem to be able to do well is correct my spelling.

And PFT is not a crutch. I have worked hard to get where I am. I am using this program to build a great deal of time quickly and to be a better investment for an airline.

And when it comes to people being "booted" from the program, I have seen it for myself. Students that don't cut it, have a bad attitude, fail tests, or dont show up are left in the dust. If that occurs it is the students own fault. The school holds their students to the highest standard, trust me I worked there, you didn't. Get your money back? That is between the student and the Academy.

Buying a job? The airline was founded on the Academy, not the other way around. The only reason they pay you is because the FAA says they have to. In all reality the program isn't PFT, because after your 250 there is no job. If you were told you would have the job for the rest of your life if you wanted it, that would be PFT. This is a time building, training program. And a good one at that.

You want to talk about doing your time? I'm washing a plane this afternoon just to get a few hours in it. We will talk in a year when I'm flying airplanes every day for a living instead of busting my a$$. You will still be behind your desk correcting peoples spelling. And don't call me "pal". I dislike having to get personal with members who are as negative as yourself. I'm sure once you complain I'll be moterated out, and once again your word will be golden.