NWA Phantom retirements

[DTW320]

Wrong. I'm in my 2nd yr on the 737 and i make 20% more than a 2nd yr. 320 guy. What other b.s. are you throwing out as facts? Face it guys, NWA has always been everyone's last choice of the majors. Crappy airplanes, crappy bases, people that didn't get hired at the other majors ended up there. Who the heck wants to fly a DC9 out of DTW?? If we do merge, it won't be hard to figure out who came from where when we're all in one uniform, y'all look like a bunch of slobs. Ok, bring it. Everyone knows this, someone had to say it.

My, My....don't you make a cute little puffy Deltoid. I'm so happy that you are enjoying the Koolaide flavor of the month. Let's see what other "b.s." I can throw out. First, there is not a 20% difference in year 2 pay on the 737 vs. a320. Did DAL drop the math portion of the screening tests a year and a half ago when you interviewed? We tend to fly around 80 hours credit at NWA, with 1.5x for any credit over 80 including training,standby pay, reporting pay, vacation. I think you guys are around 75 hours. Now before you guys all recite from the playbook: "flying 80 hours a month sucks compared to us" remember: You said you MAKE 20% more than the NWA guy.

Crappy airplanes. Lets see, our average fleet age, including the DC9, is 4 years older than DAL's. We have the largest fleet of A330's in the world, with an average age of less than 4 years. Your 777 is very nice. I wished we had gotten them instead. But our CEO at the time of the order said that they were not enough airplane for our Transpac flights and too much for Europe. What was his name again, and whatever happened to him???

Crappy bases. Hey, I don't live in DTW but I fly with many who do and seem to like the Ann Arbor area a lot. Your SLC is nice I'm sure, but the last time I sat in traffic in ATL to get to the "latest dead former mayor of Atlanta International Airport" in the charming humidity of July......I was not that impressed. NYC? Have fun commuting there (I hear they have very few delays) because on second year DAL pay I personally wouldn't accept the standard of living that it would buy me and my family if we lived in base. CVG? Looked kinda bad on WKRP so I haven't been....and I don't think anyone else has either. LAX? Well, the weather is nice, but see "NYC" above for standard of living comments.

If we do merge, it won't be hard to figure out who came from where when we're all in one uniform, y'all look like a bunch of slobs. Ok, bring it. Everyone knows this, someone had to say it.

Maybe they haven't told the 2 year guys like yourself....but we ARE merging. And you're right. It won't be hard at all. We'll be the guys not wearing hats and actually saying "Hi" to other pilots we pass in the terminal

BTW, around 75% of my non-airline-pilot friends are not impressed with the annual income of either your 777CA's or our 744CA's. Google "airline pilot income buying power 2008 vs 1970" for reference. They would find it "odd" that we were arguing about what % your pathetic salary is above a 320fo's pathetic salary.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Has your MEC actually shown you other than sound bites exactly how the various SLI proposals would affect you or I?

Ours had both graphical and numeric modeling of how it would affect all pilots - #1 - #12000, and except for DOH that was never a real proposal every one that DAL proposed disproportionately advantaged DAL pilots, and especially awarding of Captain positions far beyond the percentile differences in the size of our 2 pilot groups.

Well, relative seniority is so simple even a pilot can figure it out. It is, what you are now +/- 00.5%. The bad news, for DAL, is that it is R.S.I. into a fleet that is composed on average of aircraft 2/3rds smaller. So there would be a whole lot of bumping going on in a displacement.

Delat pilots have not seen any dynamic models, although some pilots have endeavored to build them and post them on the ALPA boards. According to them, dynamic helps senior and the upper 1/3 of the NWA list, then hurts you as the larger Delta retirements swing into action after a 36 month delay.

Personally, I think we are going to end up with a relative seniority list in arbitration. The question will be whether it is a relative list by seniority, or relative by equipment. If it is relative by seniority the NWA guys benefit, of it is relative by equipment then the DAL guys benefit.

Dynamic has too many problems, requires too many adjustments to fix those problems, and opens the door to too many future battles. In my limited knowedge there has never been a dynamic solution awarded by an arbitrator and I myself have arbitrated hundreds of ADR cases as a sitting panelist. The only arbitration award I ever granted that was struck down by a Judge was based on a future projections. After getting whacked by a Judge, I never made that suggestion again :blush:

It will probably boil down to a solution we can live with. I liked the "Fair Plan" since it protected pilots while giving them the choice of when to bid in to the combined airline. The MEC's did not bite off on the concept.

Career Protection & Progression​

“Cross-Bidding” System ​

• • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
  • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet.
  • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)
  • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers.

• Methodology
  • The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.)
  • When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence.
  • “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
  • In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots.
  • 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
• Benefits
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.

 

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We tend to fly around 80 hours credit at NWA, with 1.5x for any credit over 80 including training,standby pay, reporting pay, vacation. I think you guys are around 75 hours.

FWIW: Flew 52 hours in April, credited 108 & change for pay. Plus, stuck two days in the bank which I can use for drops, or extra vacation. Could have done better if I wasn't home every weekend. When we fly together I will be glad to explain "rolling thunder" as it applies to pay.

I've flown with a Captain who usually hits between 140 and 160 and has banked as many as 20.

I do like NWA's 75 hours for reserves. Hope your side brings that to the table.

And yes, I am a whore, as long as we don't have anyone on furlough.

 

[DTW320]

FWIW: Flew 52 hours in April, credited 108 & change for pay. Plus, stuck two days in the bank which I can use for drops, or extra vacation. Could have done better if I wasn't home every weekend. When we fly together I will be glad to explain "rolling thunder" as it applies to pay.

I've flown with a Captain who usually hits between 140 and 160 and has banked as many as 20.

I do like NWA's 75 hours for reserves. Hope your side brings that to the table.

And yes, I am a whore, as long as we don't have anyone on furlough.

Hey, you got me there. Sounds cool and I'd love to hear the details sometime. Are most guys able to pull that kind of credit each month or just a handful of sharpshooters? I have a copy of your contract. Can you provide a reference that relates to that?

 

[PuffDriver]

Hey, you got me there. Sounds cool and I'd love to hear the details sometime. Are most guys able to pull that kind of credit each month or just a handful of sharpshooters? I have a copy of your contract. Can you provide a reference that relates to that?

Section 23--greenslips as they apply to reserves. I wouldn't say that it is common, outside of summer months and widebody category captain most of the year. One of the few good deals left in this day and age.

 

[737 Pylt]

My, My....don't you make a cute little puffy Deltoid. I guess it gets real cold up north, and male companionship is worth it for "men" like you! I'm so happy that you are enjoying the Koolaide flavor of the month. What flavor do they serve at the NWA table? Let's see what other "b.s." I can throw out. First, there is not a 20% difference in year 2 pay on the 737 vs. a320. Did DAL drop the math portion of the screening tests a year and a half ago when you interviewed? Wonder what portion they dropped to let you get throught the cracks!? We tend to fly around 80 hours credit at NWA, with 1.5x for any credit over 80 including training,standby pay, reporting pay, vacation. I think you guys are around 75 hours. Now before you guys all recite from the playbook: "flying 80 hours a month sucks compared to us" remember: You said you MAKE 20% more than the NWA guy.You'll have to show where anyone said they make 20% more. I know based on today's figures DAL pilots are paid on the average 10% more.

Crappy airplanes. Lets see, our average fleet age, including the DC9, is 4 years older than DAL's. Old is still old. What's the average age of those DC-9's? Were you even born when they went into production? We have the largest fleet of A330's in the world, with an average age of less than 4 years. So, can you pat yourself on the back using your left hand, because everyond knows where your right hand is.....BFD! I flew an ER that had a production date of March 2001, probably the same year you were either hired or born! Your 777 is very nice. I wished we had gotten them instead. But our CEO at the time of the order said that they were not enough airplane for our Transpac flights and too much for Europe. What was his name again, and whatever happened to him???You'll find out soon enough sport!

Crappy bases. Hey, I don't live in DTW but I fly with many who do and seem to like the Ann Arbor area a lot. Your SLC is nice I'm sure, but the last time I sat in traffic in ATL to get to the "latest dead former mayor of Atlanta International Airport" in the charming humidity of July......I was not that impressed. Not a big fan of Atlanta myself, but I do hear that Minneapolis has the distinction of having the fattest people in the country. An award to be very proud of! NYC? Have fun commuting there (I hear they have very few delays) because on second year DAL pay I personally wouldn't accept the standard of living that it would buy me and my family if we lived in base. Just pick up the trailer and move it to wherever you want, its not too difficult! CVG? Looked kinda bad on WKRP so I haven't been....and I don't think anyone else has either. WKRP? What were you like 1 or 2 when that was on? LAX? Well, the weather is nice, but see "NYC" above for standard of living comments.See above comments for moving the trailer for ease of commuting!
Maybe they haven't told the 2 year guys like yourself....but we ARE merging. And you're right. It won't be hard at all. We'll be the guys not wearing hats and actually saying "Hi" to other pilots we pass in the terminal I'm sorry was that you? I mistook you for the skycap looking for his $2 tip!

BTW, around 75% of my non-airline-pilot friends are not impressed with the annual income of either your 777CA's or our 744CA's. I bet they're impressed that you don't have to wear your hat though! Google "airline pilot income buying power 2008 vs 1970" for reference. They would find it "odd" that we were arguing about what % your pathetic salary is above a 320fo's pathetic salary.And on this note, I agree with you!

BTW 320, the above is all in jest and TIC. After all, this is FI!:laugh:

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

DTW:

You're working too hard. I'm afraid my Delta buddies will steal my thunder, but most who visit Flightinfo know how this works already.

If you live close to the airport and don't mind being the uber short call reserve guy you can put yourself on the computer for a green slip. Green slip pay goes on top of the pay guarantee. PLUS you get pay back days, PLUS pay back rest. If you build a little bow wave of PB days then all of your flying is on your off days. At the end of the month your PB days that you can't use roll into your bank.

The pilots on the bigger equipment can get some massive GS trips. I've not gotten one of those yet.

 

[PuffDriver]

I see an arbitrator going by a DOH type basis with little corrections to offset obvious unfair SLI areas and with fences for a few years until retirements start to kick in. What is the ALPA bylaw for mergers with two ALPA carriers?? This whole merger right now is looked at as a wrench for the pilots because prior to any merger we all had a picture and vision of our future, what number we would retire at, how long to become a captain etc...But in life as we all know nothing is ever guarenteed and things can and will always be changing but what we dont seem to realize that this merger is a change for the better long term!!! We all will have to give some to gain alot. And in another 20 years dont be surprised if we go thru this all over agian when there is another merger.

I don't see the words DOH anywhere in the ruling, but could be and have been wrong on many occasions. I guess we disagree on relative vs DOH. I am just not one to believe in fences and future promises to repay. The day we merge, we ALL get to benefit on retirements of our combined airlines. If NWA guys lose progression because of timing, well, that's part of the merger process. I am not one of the "crappy equipment" guys, or "crappy northern base" guys. A plane is a plane, and junior bases are junior bases. the sooner we can harmonize--meaning no fenced equipment or bases--the sooner we can put this behind us. IMO that will mean that NWA guys will not get full attrition credit for retirements that will come sooner than the rush of Delta retirements. I think that will be made clear to the arbitrator as well, and he will do whatever he will do.

 

[DTW320]

DTW:

You're working too hard. I'm afraid my Delta buddies will steal my thunder, but most who visit Flightinfo know how this works already.

If you live close to the airport and don't mind being the uber short call reserve guy you can put yourself on the computer for a green slip. Green slip pay goes on top of the pay guarantee. PLUS you get pay back days, PLUS pay back rest. If you build a little bow wave of PB days then all of your flying is on your off days. At the end of the month your PB days that you can't use roll into your bank.

The pilots on the bigger equipment can get some massive GS trips. I've not gotten one of those yet.

Got it. Let's make sure that gets kept in any joint contract. Reminds me a little of our voluntary callout option. You agree to be on the list and they call you prior to any junior manning. You then get 1.5x pay plus days off. Our involuntary callout is paid at double time.

 

[~~~^~~~]

737: I'll go ahead and state it. I make 70% more than mi amigo Superpilot 92. Throw in the Company's contribution to the 401K/B fund and the number is around 80% more. For new hires the difference is astonishing. 50 v/s 30 and 11% v/s 2.4% for starters.

For those who considered employers based on a break even analysis, Delta, Fed Ex, UPS and SWA were the only options.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Got it. Let's make sure that gets kept in any joint contract. Reminds me a little of our voluntary callout option. You agree to be on the list and they call you prior to any junior manning. You then get 1.5x pay plus days off. Our involuntary callout is paid at double time.

I Like It :beer:

 

[DTW320]

I don't see the words DOH anywhere in the ruling, but could be and have been wrong on many occasions. I guess we disagree on relative vs DOH. I am just not one to believe in fences and future promises to repay. The day we merge, we ALL get to benefit on retirements of our combined airlines. If NWA guys lose progression because of timing, well, that's part of the merger process. I am not one of the "crappy equipment" guys, or "crappy northern base" guys. A plane is a plane, and junior bases are junior bases. the sooner we can harmonize--meaning no fenced equipment or bases--the sooner we can put this behind us. IMO that will mean that NWA guys will not get full attrition credit for retirements that will come sooner than the rush of Delta retirements. I think that will be made clear to the arbitrator as well, and he will do whatever he will do.

Just curious, if you subscribe to the common notion that a successful merger results in both sides being pissed off, what DAL pilots do you see being p/o'd and why? Your assumptions about the outcome clearly spell out why NWA pilots would be pissed, who would be pissed at DAL in your scenario?

 

[nonstop]

This is what you DAL guys are neglecting, you're not looking a year into the future let alone 10 or 20. The snapshot from today is convenient for you so that's all you like to acknowledge. You need to look at the data instead of burying your head in the sand and arguing on here like facts don't exist. There is computer data, pretty charts... I'm sure your MEC has them.

They'll fence the first 5 years or whatever so your new hires don't lose their coveted (puke; it's all perspective) NYC 767 FO spots, that's fine. However, we expect and will accept nothing less than the movement we're about to experience at NWA. Just like the movement you have already got to experience at DAL.

For the record most of you are arguing without the facts with people without the facts. NWA ALPA is NOT interested in DOH so you can stop wasting your energy debating it. DOH would be a windfall for the majority of DAL pilots and steal thousands of widebody CA years from NWA pilots.

 

[PuffDriver]

And you're right. It won't be hard at all. We'll be the guys not wearing hats and actually saying "Hi" to other pilots we pass in the terminal

For the love of God, please, please bring the hat optional thing over here. We have guys who wear it in the crew van!!

I got nailed once for not having it. I gave him this look of shock, looked around, and then said, "The best I can figure is that I left it under my pillow this morning." Instant get out of jail free

 

[737 Pylt]

737: I'll go ahead and state it. I make 70% more than mi amigo Superpilot 92. Throw in the Company's contribution to the 401K/B fund and the number is around 80% more. For new hires the difference is astonishing. 50 v/s 30 and 11% v/s 2.4% for starters.

For those who considered employers based on a break even analysis, Delta, Fed Ex, UPS and SWA were the only options.

Careful fins, this is FI, and interjecting of any and all facts will be held against you, forever!
BTW, I've flown with several other f/o's on reserve last summer who were getting over 140 hours of pay while flying only 40 hours!

737