LJ-45 vs. Citation Excel

[400A]

Any body out there flown both the Lear 45 and the Citation Excel?
I have researched them both and wondered If you liked one better that the other.

They both seem like great airplanes. The speed and range of the lear is great, but the Excel has the stand up cabin. Is one more reliable than the other?

 

[NJA Capt]

Any body out there flown both the Lear 45 and the Citation Excel?

They both seem like great airplanes. The speed and range of the lear is great, but the Excel has the stand up cabin. Is one more reliable than the other?

It largely depends on what is important to you. If you want to look cool on the ramp, pick the Lear. If you want to stand up, pick the Excel.

The Lear is faster and has more range, while the Excel has more cabin volumn and more baggage space. The baggage compartment on the Excel is excellent. Large baggage door and easily accessible.

Fit and finish in the cabin is by most accounts, better in the Lear. In my opinion, the Excel's exterior accessibility is a bit better than the Lear. Such as the previously mention baggage door. Also, the fuel panel location, tailcone access compartment, battery compartents and the like. Most systems are readily accessible for maint.

Passengers love the Excel. I flew an owner who had considered a Lear 45/60 and was very impressed with the Excel's power. Both aircraft have the same Primus 1000. Our Excels had TCASII and EGPWS, APU, (2) DVDs, (1) VHS, Airshow, Tele/fax/data.

I enjoyed the Excel. It was a great performer and fun to fly.

 

[NJAowner]

I have not been on the Lear but own an 1/8 of the Excel. Love it (though sometimes need more range). Lots of room inside and since i use about 1/2 my hours to travel with the whole family (i.e., many suitcases & baggage) the exterior access and room in the tail is great. When I reach the vacation spot, I can fit more in the back of the Excel than the Suburban I have. Plus the 2 DVDs and 1 VCR mean the kids watch their movies, wife watches a chick flick and I watch Austin Powers which noew seems to be on every NJA palne I've been on lately. But the lav doors never work properly. Just my 2 cents!

 

[TrumanSparks]

I flew the 45 for a couple of years at FlexJet and I really enjoyed the airplane. I just left Flex to work for an airline, but if you have any questions feel free to PM me, I'd be happy to help.

The one piece of advice that is a must, get the APU (trust me).

 

[400A]

Fot the excel pilots,, did you find yourself getting turned out of the way much due to speed? It is only slightly slower than our beechjet, and we rarely get turned. Speed is not an ego trip for me but I need to know how to plan for charter quotes, especially in the North east.

We have demoed the 45, and liked it, but being able to stand up would be nice.

The 45 is quiet, and I hear the excel is as well.

How is passenger acceptance to the couch?

Hot and High???

Reliability?

Thanks for the input!

 

[400A]

Range

I agree on paper the lear has more range, but I got a set of books, and to get any range out of it you have to ride in the mid 40's. I am not interested in 4 hrs with the hose on.

How bout the Excel?

Range with seats full?

 

[NJA Capt]

...did you find yourself getting turned out of the way much due to speed? It is only slightly slower than our beechjet, and we rarely get turned.

Man, I even get turned at FL410 @ .91 mach in the 750! Go figure.

It's all relative. I don't think the Excel gets turned any more than other jets. It has a Vmo of 305/.750m, so it can hold it's own. I once had a Lear 35 try to pass us at 410. After :45 min he asked for 430 to pass. He never did. He sounded pretty PO'd that he couldn't get by us.

 

[400A]

turn in 750

Youy got turned in the 750 cause you were running all over everyone LOLOL.....

 

[deskjobssuck]

So, now that the Excel is the XLS and the 45 is the 45XR, can anyone give some more up-to-date input? I know someone who is trying to decide between the two and I would like to be able to contribute. It seems like there are a few questions that keep coming up.


1) Is the drop aisle in the xls a help or hindrance? It seems to us that pax would constantly be looking to find a place for their feet. After riding in the back of the lear, I think the flat floor is nice - once you make it to your seat.

2) The xls has better runway performance, but can you take any sort of payload a decent distancef those short runways? I haven't seen the POH, but the advertising numbers make me a little suspicious.

3) On paper, the xls has more luggage capacity, but is it an issue if you're not able to carry the extra weight because you need it for fuel?

4) Can the lear truly carry full seats and full fuel as people keep telling me?

5) Is the extra room in the xls cockpit that much better?

Ok, ok. I know there are too many questions, but they just keep coming up. I guess we're just looking for honest info about how the two a/c compare. Thanks for the help.

 

[TrumanSparks]

Best range I got out of a 45 was BUR to PBI non stop at 410 with a pretty good tailwind. Landed with a 1000 lbs. Not bad for and airplane that carries 6000 lbs of fuel.

 

[bman]

Gents

I have been flying the XLS for several months since we got our 2 brand new ones and my impressions have been mixed (though leaning more negative)

First the good:

The airplane can climb! Right up to 430 and immediately accel to MMO fully loaded

The baggage compartment is large, but it isn't as massive as everyone goes on about (basically it is pretty wide and deep, but not very tall) That's not how I like my ladies. Tall and shallow that's the ticket!!!

The cabin is really fabulous for the aircraft size.

Now the bad:

That two position tail is simply a rediculous design for an airplane this size. Folks this is a case of trying to squeeze 200lbs of $hit into a 50lbs bag. It make the airplane require way more force than should be needed during rotation then stay below 200 till the stab stops movin (which seems to take for ever) which requires lotsa pushin.

Take a look at the leading edges and wing. Notice all of those BLE's and VG there has gotta be a million of those things! This is not an indication of lotsa development and design.

The airplane handles ok after its all cleaned up, but it feels very truckish.

And finally the cherry..... Our airplane in particular and many others (but not as prenounced) has this god awful pitching tendancy on coupled ILS Approaches. A couple of things you will notice with the autopilot on.

If you are straight and level and put the gear down the aircraft will pitch up abruptly. (this has to do with the interpurtion of airflow around the static port due to the gear doors opening) Funny the 650 has the same fuse' and it don't do that. Probably cost too much!

On an ILS straight and level. The A/C will pitch up to catch the slope and it will continue its fugoid operation all the way down the slope. In some cases getting progressively worse the closer you get to the ground. ASk Cessna and they will say it is Honeywell's fault. Ask Honeywell and guess who they are gonna blame. In the mean time guess whose gotta deal with and autopilot that can barely manage to fly an instrument approach any better than an instrument student? Bingo you guessed it!!

Overall for the money you are definatley getting more for the money you are spending., but a wise man once said "more isn't always better some times its just more".

 

[deez_nutz2000]

Bman,

Are you arming the approach mode when you are cleared for the ILS or when the GS starts to move? If you arm it before it begins to come in or when you have intercepted and are on it, it will fly the GS fine, with very slight oscillations occasionally (at least in ours). But if you arm the approach once the GS bug has started to move, you will get that big "pitch up" as it goes up to get the GS. If this happens, just hold the TCS and keep her level until the GS centers, once its captured and locked in let it go and you shouldnt have anything to do but manage the power. Not sure if they fixed the LOC intercept in the XLS, but unless you are around 175 kts or less when intercepting, the a/p usually blows through the LOC. This is just what we've experienced...anyone with any other insight?

Do you guys ever get the STAB Miscompare light after takeoff? This happpens to us quite a bit and hear it happens to many of the other XL people also, just wondering if they fixed it. At least you have the new and improved brakes......it was a real b1tch to taxi the excel with the old ones.

 

[pilotpair]

Range 45

Average consistant range I get going East to West with Average 40 knot headwind is 1840 nm 4:40 land with 1025#'s average. In order to do this you will be at or above FL47.0 for at least the last two hours.

Glen

 

[satpak77]

I have a friend flying a LR-45 and he indicated that Factory support has been less than desirable.

for whatever thats worth

 

[bman]

deez

First let me just say " I'm Rick Jaaammmess Biatch!!!!!!!"

As to the A/P on the XLS, I am familiar with the GS intercept method of which you speak and the LOC problem has not been fixed. That's all kind of my point. The Excel has been certified for 6+ years and this is all known condition stuff. Cessna calls themselves comming out with the Excel+ (XLS) and they still haven't fixed the pre-exsisting conditions of the previous model.

As to the Stab Miscompare, if you are experiencing it just after takeoff, remember Cessna say you must remain below 200kts until HYD Press Light goes out otherwise you get that nasty stab miscompare light. They don't want the stab moving above 200kts in their flight testing they found some undesirable flight characteristics when that happened. Bad JuJu!!!

Like I said I have flown the 550u, the VII, the deuce, & the uno and none of them behaved this way. As a matter of fact I have this great video of the rollercoaster ride down the GS on a couple of test flights. It great home viewing

Bman

 

[devine9driver]

Our company demoed both the 45XR and the XLS last January, and we ended up buying the 45XR. At the time we were operating a beechjet 400A, so both aircraft had advantages over the 400A. Our CEO flew on both aircraft, and had nothing but praise for the 45XR. I believe the XLS is a great aircraft as well, but for our mission profile the 45XR was a better fit. I can tell you our CEO's negative comments on the XLS were the drop down floor, the 2 place divan, and he said the XLS had a rougher ride in turbulence than the 45. This was explained to him by the demo pilots that it was due to the straight wing. I can also tell you that when it came time to talk turkey, Bombardier was more willing to wheel and deal with both the sticker price and trade in value of our 400A. We've been operating our 45XR for about 3 months now and have had both outstanding technical support and a flawless aircraft. We've flown the aircraft several times with full fuel and 7-8 pax. into 50kt headwinds on 1750NM legs landing with 1200lbs. The XR upgrade makes a huge impact in getting to the higher flight levels quickly. Typical burns at 450 doing M78 are around 550lbs per side per hour. We figure 1600lbs first hr. 1100lbs every hour after. The 45 has been a great acquisition for our flight department and the boss is already looking at bigger Bombardier equipment down the road. Hope this helps some.

 

[deskjobssuck]

devine9driver,

Mind if I pm you?

 

[devine9driver]

Fire me a PM, DESK