Large Cabin Aircraft opinions wanted

[400A]

We are beginning a 2 year study of what will end in the purchase of a large cabin aircraft. The main options are as expected. GIVSP, Falcon 900 series, and the 604. Our budget will be 20-25 mil. Should we go new on the 604, or used on one of the others? ups and downs of each??? DOC's???

This aircraft will do ALOT of over-water work, so systems redundancy is important.

Thanks in advance,

400A

 

[banned username 2]

We are beginning a 2 year study of what will end in the purchase of a large cabin aircraft. The main options are as expected. GIVSP, Falcon 900 series, and the 604. Our budget will be 20-25 mil. Should we go new on the 604, or used on one of the others? ups and downs of each??? DOC's???

This aircraft will do ALOT of over-water work, so systems redundancy is important.

Thanks in advance,

400A

I've got a lot of time in the Falcon 900EX (including a lot of over-water time), I'd be happy to answer any specific questions you might have...

 

[G100driver]

We are beginning a 2 year study of what will end in the purchase of a large cabin aircraft. The main options are as expected. GIVSP, Falcon 900 series, and the 604. Our budget will be 20-25 mil. Should we go new on the 604, or used on one of the others? ups and downs of each??? DOC's???

This aircraft will do ALOT of over-water work, so systems redundancy is important.

Thanks in advance,

400A

2 years .... good Lord, that $20-25 million aircraft will be $30-35 million

If your owner is willing to buy new I would definately recomend it. When you buy new you will have the FULL support of the manufacturer and all its resources. We just bought new and Dassault has been GREAT. They have fully taken care of us and our needs whether it be tech support or warranty. Have previously dealt with Gulfstream I am sure they would be just as good or better.

I will not talk about airplanes because I do not want to see the silly debate about RAT's and such from users of aircraft that MUST have them to keep their airplanes from falling out of the sky.

 

[400A]

New

I do like new... I have run several new airplanes. In fact we just ordered this companys first aircraft. It is a new 45XR that will be here in the spring. This is the begining plans to replace it in 2 years due to expansion in Hawaii.

 

[banned username 2]

replace it in 2 years due to expansion in Hawaii.

Well since the California coast to Hawaii is the worlds longest over water route without any alternates, I personally would like to be in a 3 engine aircraft... One of the nice things about the 900EX is that with the loss of an engine, the effect on your range is neglegible (less than 100NM change)...

 

[G100driver]

One of the nice things about the 900EX is that with the loss of an engine, the effect on your range is neglegible (less than 100NM change)...

Is the perfomance the same for the -B and -C models?

 

[banned username 2]

Is the perfomance the same for the -B and -C models?

I believe the range change is about the same... Same holds true for the 50EX...

 

[GVFlyer]

At the 20-25 million dollar price point you are looking at pre-owned aircraft if you are considering a G450 or a Falcon 900EX, both of which cost around $34 million. The Challenger 604, new, can be had for around $24 million if you hold Bombardier's feet to the fire.

In the Gulfstream v. Falcon arena, it all depends on what you are looking for. Both offer redundancy in depth. The GIV is a 75,000 pound airplane, the Falcon weighs in at 48,500 lb. Operating costs are comparable and statistically, you are still more likely to arrive single-engine in the three-holer Falcon than in the Rolls-Royce powered Gulfstream. You will live much of your life in the 30's in the Falcon and will always be able to go to an initial altitude of 41,000 feet in the Gulfstream. GIV reliability is legend and Gulfstream support was just voted number one in a "Pro Pilot" survey.

I have flown the GIV to every continent except Antartica and have never been left stranded.

I was on the military source selection board for the successor to the C-20 A,B,C,D,G (G-III) and the G-IV was the hands down winner against all comers.

No one brings a bad product to market, just be sure to carefully consider your requirements when making your aircraft selection.

GV

 

[banned username 2]

Not to nit-pick, but...

the Falcon weighs in at 48,500 lb.

900EX Ramp is 49,200 lbs, MGTOW is 49,000 lbs. (with the no-cost gross weight increase SB)

Operating costs are comparable

Perhaps on the 900B with the older engines (MSP was much higher on those). The 900EX is coming in at a fair bit lower operating cost than the G-IV we used to have, I don't have the exact numbers off hand, but it was several hundred dollars per hour less, and that was back when fuel was significantly cheaper than it is today...

statistically, you are still more likely to arrive single-engine in the three-holer Falcon than in the Rolls-Royce powered Gulfstream.

I still don't buy this... The odds of loosing 2 engines on one flight vs. losing one engine... I agree the Rolls Royce are more rugged engines than the Garretts, but to lose two on a flight vs. the odds of shutting one down on a Gulfstream, I still don't buy it... If you were to say "statistically, you are still more likely to arrive one engine inop in the three-holer Falcon than in the Rolls-Royce powered Gulfstream." I would probably agree with you...

You will live much of your life in the 30's in the Falcon

I spend a LOT of time at FL390, FL410, FL430 in our 900EX... The old 900B was much more of a dog and would be in the low to mid 30's most of the time from what I understand.


Keep in mind that GVFlyer is SLIGHTLY biased towards Gulfstream, and rightfully so, as that is where his paycheck comes from...

 

[BizAvFA]

All American

Disclaimer: This is just a silly flight attendant opinion!

I have worked on Gulfstreams, Falcons, and Challengers. A lot.

I like the Gulfstream the best.
All American!!!
Ability to hang head high.
Built like a truck (own personal experiance with this one)
Roomier, more solid.
Climbing empowerment (yes, even we appreiciate that)
Also I dont have to worry about opening baggage when at altitude (not GV). Plus the baggage is bigger. And near my galley, away from prying eyes facing the front.
Nice windows.
Confidence that you made the right choice, unlike the ABC next door.
Never having to ask where they got that idea from!
It seems that the other model pilots are always looking for reasons and points as to why their aircraft are better than Gulfstreams. 'nuf said.

Does anyone know why Georgias Favorite Son has a Challenger? (TT)

 

[rice]

We are beginning a 2 year study of what will end in the purchase of a large cabin aircraft. The main options are as expected. GIVSP, Falcon 900 series, and the 604. Our budget will be 20-25 mil. Should we go new on the 604, or used on one of the others? ups and downs of each??? DOC's???

This aircraft will do ALOT of over-water work, so systems redundancy is important.

Thanks in advance,

400A

Depends on what your looking at, both the Falcon and the Gulfstream are super aircraft and each has its warts. If hot/high or short runways are in your future I'd recommend the 900, if absolute performance and engine reliability are more important then probably go with a 450 or 500.
At this level you really can't make a bad decision between these two aircraft.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

New is nice, but the 50EX will do the job

Well since the California coast to Hawaii is the worlds longest over water route without any alternates, I personally would like to be in a 3 engine aircraft... One of the nice things about the 900EX is that with the loss of an engine, the effect on your range is neglegible (less than 100NM change)...

The 50EX will do the job and there are a number of them out there with low time. With the influx of new designs of corp aircraft, they have been traded in with the new plane smell still in tact.

 

[AA717driver]

I think cost will be a problem with a used GIV. GV can probably elaborate on this but our rep said they are turning used aircraft as fast as they can get their hands on them.

Funny, no one here has mentioned that legendary Bombardier product support... TC

 

[400A]

Still listening

So far all of the comments are good.

The F/A comments are good thoughts, as we will have a F/A.

While the 50EX is an awesome machine, We will be hauling between 9 to 11 on a regular basis, and I dont feel the 50 has enough cabin for that.

We have chartered a GIVSP for them before and they loved it. That would also be my choice, but from what I am seeing, if we were to do it today, the aircraft would be about 5 years old. The owner currently believes that he would rather have a 5 year old 4sp than a new 604. As F/A mentioned, they also noticed a major ride difference on the 4 vs 604.

I HAVE notice that no one has mentioned the 604 yet. I would like some input here. From what I have heard around the old aerodrome, everyone likes the 604,,,,UNLESS THEY FLEW A GULFSTREAM FIRST,,, then they dont like it. CCE comes to mind.

I am also a big fan of 3 engines, however, currently the buyer refers to them as those F-ing French Things. I am trying to leave politics out of this to get the right machines.

Weight and hangar space are also a concern, as we are not in a private hangar.

 

[400A]

Rice

Did you do a term in ICT???

 

[bigD]

I think the real question that needs to be answered here is whether or not the plane can get in and out the BBQ mecca of the U.S. (Llano, TX), as well as how much BBQ it can haul out of there.


I'd be willing to bet that the 900EX beats the Gulfstream pretty easily here - especially given the Gulfstream's 500 pound useful load penalty due to the added weight of the pilots' egos.

 

[longrangekiller]

So far all of the comments are good.


I am also a big fan of 3 engines, however, currently the buyer refers to them as those F-ing French Things. I am trying to leave politics out of this to get the right machines.

Weight and hangar space are also a concern, as we are not in a private hangar.

You also might consider a 2000EX. It has just as many engines as a G-IV and almost the range. If California to HI is a regular mission, it can do this every day without any issue, ie no wet footprint with 120 +HW. (If you want to read the RAT postings you can go back to previous strings and read the rantings of the paranoid, mis-informed and those who's paychecks dictate that preach this crap)

With that said, it is the only airplane that you can purchase NEW for less than $28 million and have operating costs below $1500/HR. The cabin is very comfortable for 8 people. If you get above that it would get crowded for long flights. The galley is the same size as the as the 900 and the airplane also has about 1/3 more baggage space.

Life is good when you are buying up. No matter what your flight department does life will only get better for you.

Good luck with you decision.

 

[GVFlyer]

So far all of the comments are good.

I HAVE notice that no one has mentioned the 604 yet. I would like some input here. From what I have heard around the old aerodrome, everyone likes the 604,,,,UNLESS THEY FLEW A GULFSTREAM FIRST,,, then they dont like it. CCE comes to mind.

When we were evaluating the Challenger and the GIV at Andrews AFB we flew the Gulfstream first which, when we got to the Challenger, made it feel as if it were operating single-engine.

I am also a big fan of 3 engines, however, currently the buyer refers to them as those F-ing French Things. I am trying to leave politics out of this to get the right machines.

If three-engined airplanes were a good idea then someone in addition to Dassault would make them.

The current Conklin and DeDecker hourly Direct Operating Costs for the two aircraft are as follows:

Gulfstream G450 - $1744

Falcon 900EX - $1688

Remember that the G450 is a much larger jet. (75,000 v. 49.2 with a tip of the hat to Falcon Captain).

It is difficult to come by recent statistical information on the failure rate of TFE-731's as Dassault has clamped down on Allied Signal and they no longer release this information.

The G450 is not ETOPS certified (ETOPS applies only to Part 121 aircraft), but the jet meets double the ETOPS 180 requirements, which is a testiment to it's reliability.

As AA717 has suggested the pre-owned G-IV market is a hot one right now and the aircraft are demanding a premium price.

GV

 

[banned username 2]

It is difficult to come by recent statistical information on the failure rate of TFE-731's as Dassault has clamped down on Allied Signal and they no longer release this information.

Well the Garrett's have gotten dramatically better in the past several years... When we first got the -40 powered 50EX's (about 6 years ago) we were going through a large number of carbon seals... I can't remember the last time we pulled an engine... For reference, our department is running about 16,000 "engine hours" per year... Are they Rolls-Royce's? Nope, but they have gotten much better...

 

[xrated]

A lot of used Boeings parked in the desert. Get one cheep and use all the extra scratch on interior and fuel. The boss would love the room in a 747-200.