I Say We Burn The Whole Industry Down

[Dumb Pilot]

Gen Xer's?!? The industry started to take a dump in the mid 80's and it's been nothing but downhill since. And you have the balls to blame gen Xer's?!?

Did you pay for your training too? excuse me while Iuke:

 

[SMOE]

Okay then tough guy. How about not getting home to catch little Susie's dance recital or Little Johnny's T-ball game because you just shut the entire US air travel system down? Explain that one to your wife and kids. Is that far-sighted enough for you?

Or how about this for being far-sighted. How many employees will end up out of work because of your little illegal job action? Single mother flight attendants for example. Or the mechanic who relies on this job for the insurance for a disabled child? Are you and your other tough little friends getting the picture yet?

So yeah. Go right ahead and do your little tantrum and see how many of you have jobs to go back to and how many others you f'''' over in the process besides the executives you want to show up.

Hey A$$hole, life goes on. T-ball games? Dance recitals? I'm not even going to waste anymore electrons on a moron of your magnitude...

 

[JumpersAway]

Did you pay for your training too? excuse me while Iuke:

No, I got a degree and some ratings. I learned to fly and got my training in a beat up catastrophe of an airplane that was good for on the job training regarding engine failures and fires. Does that make you feel better?

The happiest day of my life was parking that turd for the final time and walking away to start my ground school at a regional- because that is all there was that was hiring- by default.

That's probably why I am so serious about it and appreciative for a schedule, and compentant maintenance. Oh, and climate control, a cockpit door, and a lav are nice too. And the pay is better.

 

[Morning Wood]

Hey A$$hole, life goes on. T-ball games? Dance recitals? I'm not even going to waste anymore electrons on a moron of your magnitude...

Life goes on huh? You obviously don't have kids because your priorities are out of whack. How about something maybe you can understand like missing a shift or not getting back to class while on probation? Or how about missing a funeral or other event like that? Life goes on. Pound it up your ass.

 

[FlyinGuy]

If you really think a national senority list




Sorry for the interruption, but I had to go back and look at SMOEs' avitar!!!




is the way to go, you are an idiot.

 

[Lear70]

The happiest day of my life was parking that turd for the final time and walking away to start my ground school at a regional- because that is all there was that was hiring- by default.

Bullsh*t.

There are ALWAYS Cessna 310/414 jobs or King Air or Citation/Learjet jobs that are hiring people.

Kalitta hires Lear F/O's with as little as 500 hours total time. Has for years. Pays twice as much as a regional.

You didn't have to go to a regional, it was just the easy way out. Just call it what it is.

Life goes on huh? You obviously don't have kids because your priorities are out of whack.

I have kids and, yes, life DOES go on.

You make sacrifices for your ethics and the things you believe in. I'm doing it right now. It sucks, but I'm still living my life, enjoying family when I can, fighting management for my job back and then continuing to fight for a decent contract.

You make your choices in life. If missing one of your kid's t-ball game is more important than shoring up what's left of your career, I'd say you have your priorities out of whack.

Do you want to miss your kid's entire life? Of course not. Are you going to make sacrifices to better your career and your profession?

Or are you one of those people who can't be bothered to show up for a BoD meeting or a rally or a picketing event because your kid has a dance recital?

And people wonder why this career is in the toilet. Everyone just wants everything to magically get better without doing any work to make it that way. The sense of entitlement is STAGGERING...

 

[Morning Wood]

Bullsh*t.

There are ALWAYS Cessna 310/414 jobs or King Air or Citation/Learjet jobs that are hiring people.

Kalitta hires Lear F/O's with as little as 500 hours total time. Has for years. Pays twice as much as a regional.

You didn't have to go to a regional, it was just the easy way out. Just call it what it is.

I have kids and, yes, life DOES go on.

You make sacrifices for your ethics and the things you believe in. I'm doing it right now. It sucks, but I'm still living my life, enjoying family when I can, fighting management for my job back and then continuing to fight for a decent contract.

You make your choices in life. If missing one of your kid's t-ball game is more important than shoring up what's left of your career, I'd say you have your priorities out of whack.

Do you want to miss your kid's entire life? Of course not. Are you going to make sacrifices to better your career and your profession?

Or are you one of those people who can't be bothered to show up for a BoD meeting or a rally or a picketing event because your kid has a dance recital?

And people wonder why this career is in the toilet. Everyone just wants everything to magically get better without doing any work to make it that way. The sense of entitlement is STAGGERING...

This has nothing to do with entitlement. It has everything to do with taking a look around and realizing that we are all on a slippery slope to nowhere good. Airlines that just recently came out of bankruptcy are reporting record losses, oil is $120 a barrel and climbing, and no less than 5 airlines have shut the doors in the past month. Frankly, those of us who are still employeed should be damn glad. Sorry if that doesn't fit into the "take one for the team" mentailty that exists on here, but this isn't 1960.

I'm all for doing the work to make things better, but in this current state I fail to see how a one-day walk out that would cetainly be the death of a couple more carriers or burning the entire industry to the ground as some are suggesting is going to help me, you, or anyone else. Things are worse now I believe than after 9/11 and people are in denial or think if they screw Ornstein or Steenland that things will get better. The difference this time is that that with oil being what it is, there aren't going to be new LCC's to work for until you get recalled.

 

[PurpleInMEM]

I love reading threads like this because it illustrates the primary misconception that many workers share. A company's singular objective is to maximize shareholder wealth. That's it, nothing more. When workers realize that companies only view them as necessary expenses and not as assets they will just aquiesce and slip into the warm bath that is the numb, morphine-like confines of the Amerikan dream. They don't care about your job, why should you?

Want to share in a corporation's good fortune borne on the backs of its employees? Buy stock. Otherwise stop whining and just assume you've lost and get back to American Idol, fast food and watching millionaires move an inflated ball around a field (that you paid for) on weekends.

Ahhhh....feels soooo good!

PS: The only thing that will change this mutha is armed civil insurrection and we all know that it will NEVER happen. :uzi: But just in case one starts, I'm in!

 

[Morning Wood]

isn't MCI a skywest domicile or is it a mx base?

MCI is not a crew domicile and is only a line mx city. What you guys need to understand is that we have had guys kicked off United airplanes by offering to take a cockpit J/S when flights are full. Hence the directive from the J/S coordinator.

P.S. United pilots have trips with scheduled deadheads on the Express Carriers all the time. This is nothing new.

So if you had a buddy who was returning home with his wife, you wouldn't take a FA jumpseat to get her on?

Dude, go over to the majors thread and read the "I Say We Burn The Whole Industry Down" thread. Not only would he not do what you are asking, people like him are suggesting a one-day walk out. How many people that commute are going to up the creek trying to get to work? Good job of taking one for the team and helping the "brotherhood"

 

[Lear70]

This has nothing to do with entitlement. It has everything to do with taking a look around and realizing that we are all on a slippery slope to nowhere good.

You're right, we ARE on a slippery slope to nowhere good, but not in the way you're preaching.

Fuel prices have always gone up. Lease prices have always gone up. Maintenance costs, gate and counter leases at airports, landing fees, everything has always gone up with inflation.

But we're supposed to sit back and watch our wages continually decrease or not even increase with inflation? In every other business we pass that cost onto the customer. Here, people like you allow management to pass that cost onto US. Why is that? Fear? or Apathy?

I submit that you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Airlines that just recently came out of bankruptcy are reporting record losses,

No, they're not. Check your facts, buddy. They're posting losses, yes, due to increased fuel prices and their refusal to raise FARES to OFFSET their costs, but they are NOWHERE NEAR "record" losses, and are recoverable by the end of the year if the industry would raise fares across the board.

oil is $120 a barrel and climbing, and no less than 5 airlines have shut the doors in the past month.

Fuel has only been above $100 for a few months. Those airlines didn't shut their doors because of fuel prices alone; those airlines shut their doors because they were unable to compete, in each airline's case, for different reasons.

Frankly, those of us who are still employeed should be damn glad. Sorry if that doesn't fit into the "take one for the team" mentailty that exists on here, but this isn't 1960.

And that's why you will NEVER, EVER see pay and QOL equal to that of the 1960's.

1. You're just "glad to have a job" instead of realizing that YOU ARE A NECESSARY PART OF THE EQUATION FOR COMPANIES TO MAKE MONEY. If they don't employ pilots (and mechanics, and gate agents, and f/a's, etc), THEY won't make any money. Should your V.P. of Flight Ops, CFO, and CEO just be "glad to have a job"? Grow a pair, for Christ's sake.

2. You believe somehow that now is different than the 60's in terms of being paid a fare wage or a wage that increases at least equal to inflation. Why is it different? The U.S. is still the U.S. Our constitution is still in place. The only thing that has changed is that people like you refuse to stand up for themselves.

Our founding fathers would be ashamed.

I'm all for doing the work to make things better, but in this current state I fail to see how a one-day walk out that would cetainly be the death of a couple more carriers or burning the entire industry to the ground as some are suggesting is going to help me, you, or anyone else.

OK, remember you said that, I'm going to make a point here.

ONE day. ONE day of airlines not flying is going to "certainly be the death of a couple more carriers"...

What happens when there's a snowstorm in JFK that shuts down 90%+ of jetBlue flights? Oh, that's right, the very next year they post the SMALLEST loss of any carrier and are better-positioned cash-wise than ANY other carrier (on a percentage of cash flow basis).

What happens when AA grounds over 30% of their domestic fleet and strand thousands upon thousands of passengers? Oh, that's right, they still have record-high load factors and go right back to doing business the next day.

Things are worse now I believe than after 9/11 and people are in denial or think if they screw Ornstein or Steenland that things will get better.

Worse than after 9/11? Wait a minute, you just said above that one day of not-operating would "certainly be the death of a couple carriers". If memory serves (and I was sitting watching the senate hearings while NOTHING was flying in the skies except military aircraft), we were almost a WEEK without a SINGLE COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT operating in U.S. airspace, and I don't seem to remember it being "the death of a couple carriers".

The teachers in Michigan walked off their job, en masse, and went right back to teaching class when their dispute was settled BECAUSE KIDS STILL NEEDED TO BE IN SCHOOL.

The New York transit workers walked off the job, en masse, and the system went right back to functioning as soon as they went back, BECAUSE PEOPLE STILL NEEDED TO TRAVEL.

If the aviation world shuts down (again) for a few days, PEOPLE WILL STILL NEED TO TRAVEL and the system will go right back to functioning.

You're WAY out there, my friend. It's alarmist, and it's bullsh*t. The U.S. Air Carrier business isn't going anywhere. Would the public be angry? Absolutely. Would they support us? They don't support (or care) about us now, all they care about is their $39 fare to MCO. Would they return to fly? Absolutely; they do it every time there's a large shutdown of a carrier for weather or maintenance.

And as far as this being worse than after 9/11, you're smoking crack. THOSE were record losses. People were AFRAID to fly. That has nothing to do with a nation-wide SOS.

Like I said before, I don't think it would work, and you proved my point nicely: "There are too many weak sisters who would still show up to work and undermine those who DO have a backbone."

This industry is frakked. It will never be what it was, and I, for one, am sick and tired of fighting for myself and my fellow pilots when they can't even be bothered to fight for themselves.

/rant

 

[ACT700]

The third choice that no one wants to accept is "refuse to fly ANYTHING at those wages".

I did. So did many others. We built our time elsewhere in decent-paying jobs out of self-respect.

Until people are willing to STOP TAKING THE POVERTY-LEVEL JOBS, you will get NO sympathy from me. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.
...

Well said! I'm with you 100% on this one.

All you (regional guys) have to do to gain some credibility is say "no" to those conditions.
We all know that won't happen, because there's always someone who'll do it for less.
Remember, I once had 400 hours, too, yet I somehow got past that without having to live on foodstamps.

 

[Lear70]

MCI is not a crew domicile and is only a line mx city. What you guys need to understand is that we have had guys kicked off United airplanes by offering to take a cockpit J/S when flights are full. Hence the directive from the J/S coordinator.

P.S. United pilots have trips with scheduled deadheads on the Express Carriers all the time. This is nothing new.

Oh, so you're a regional guy. That explains a lot...

A few regional guys I know get it and are fighting on behalf of the pilots but, and I know this from experience, they're fighting a losing battle at the regionals because of the pilots who are flying there. Most of you don't have the stomach or the backbone for a real fight.

Unfortunately, guys like you are the guys who are going on to Majors later in life, thus the Majors will eventually be full of guys who have no stomach or backbone for a fight and will just sit back and take whatever they're handed the rest of their career.

Congratulations, and welcome to a shelled-out version of this once-noble profession. You've earned it.

Dude, go over to the majors thread and read the "I Say We Burn The Whole Industry Down" thread.

"Dude"... this IS the "I say we burn the whole industry down" thread. Situational awareness anyone?

Not only would he not do what you are asking, people like him are suggesting a one-day walk out. How many people that commute are going to up the creek trying to get to work? Good job of taking one for the team and helping the "brotherhood"

Ummm... hint:

If the industry ever DID a system-wide SOS, who would be commuting to work?

Oh yeah, that's right. YOU would still be going to work, along with the rest of the pilots who have no backbone.

Hint #2: It's a SYSTEM-WIDE STOPPAGE OF SERVICE. NO ONE goes to work. NO ONE commutes until the SOS is over. Get it yet?

For the love of Pete...

Kinda scary that this basic concept is so foreign that you are talking about going to work during a work stoppage. Basic cognitive skills ARE required of an airline pilot.

 

[pipe]

Okay then tough guy. How about not getting home to catch little Susie's dance recital or Little Johnny's T-ball game because you just shut the entire US air travel system down? Explain that one to your wife and kids. Is that far-sighted enough for you?

Or how about this for being far-sighted. How many employees will end up out of work because of your little illegal job action? Single mother flight attendants for example. Or the mechanic who relies on this job for the insurance for a disabled child? Are you and your other tough little friends getting the picture yet?

So yeah. Go right ahead and do your little tantrum and see how many of you have jobs to go back to and how many others you f'''' over in the process besides the executives you want to show up.

Hey Wood-

You wanna talk short-sighted? I'm more concerned with being compensated in shuch a way that "little Johnny" can go to college. I'll work the damn t-ball out on my own.

PIPE

 

[Lear70]

The whole conversation is a moot point, anyway.

#1. It's illegal.

#2. It's illegal.

#3. There's no way you'd get everyone on board. This thread is proof: the days of pilots banding together for the common good of the profession has gone the way of the dinosaur.

This country was founded on the principle that the American Worker would always stand up for themselves when needed. There's few left who will - they're too scared to lose what little they have.

Where's that deadhorse emoticon? :deadhorse:

 

[Morning Wood]

You're right, we ARE on a slippery slope to nowhere good, but not in the way you're preaching.

Fuel prices have always gone up. Lease prices have always gone up. Maintenance costs, gate and counter leases at airports, landing fees, everything has always gone up with inflation.

But we're supposed to sit back and watch our wages continually decrease or not even increase with inflation? In every other business we pass that cost onto the customer. Here, people like you allow management to pass that cost onto US. Why is that? Fear? or Apathy?

I don’t know. Why don’t you ask virtually every labor group who “allowed” costs to be passed on via concessions in the past 5 years.

No, they're not. Check your facts, buddy. They're posting losses, yes, due to increased fuel prices and their refusal to raise FARES to OFFSET their costs, but they are NOWHERE NEAR "record" losses, and are recoverable by the end of the year if the industry would raise fares across the board.

Okay, so not record losses. How about disturbing? You think Delta’s $6.39 billion loss or NW’s $4.1 billion loss is as simple to turn around by raising ticket prices? American’s fuel costs increased 45% from the past quarter compared to the same quarter a year ago. Do you think a 45% increase in airfares is going to happen across the board? And that is assuming the oil doesn’t go any higher than it is and until today it has been going up almost $2 a day.

Fuel has only been above $100 for a few months. Those airlines didn't shut their doors because of fuel prices alone; those airlines shut their doors because they were unable to compete, in each airline's case, for different reasons.

Re-read my post. I never suggested that fuel alone was the death knell for the ones who have gone out of business or ones who might. The price of oil has doubled in the past year. How long it’s been over $100 a barrel is not the issue. F9 just filed BK and now YX is furloughing pilots. Do those sound like airlines who are in a position to compete and withstand a self-inflicted kick in the balls?

ONE day. ONE day of airlines not flying is going to "certainly be the death of a couple more carriers"...

What happens when there's a snowstorm in JFK that shuts down 90%+ of jetBlue flights? Oh, that's right, the very next year they post the SMALLEST loss of any carrier and are better-positioned cash-wise than ANY other carrier (on a percentage of cash flow basis).

One airline or hub shutting down for a day is NOT the same thing as the entire system shutting down. A one day walk-out would likely take 3-4 to recover from because of all the crews who aren’t in place. It took almost a week to go back to a full schedule post 9/11. But I guess if you’re losing $300 million a quarter, another $10 million is not a big deal, right?

What happens when AA grounds over 30% of their domestic fleet and strand thousands upon thousands of passengers? Oh, that's right, they still have record-high load factors and go right back to doing business the next day.

They lost tens of millions of dollars over the 4-5 days (twice) the airplanes were grounded. Record high load factors? Because of all the people they had still running out of their ears that could not be rebooked. It was not business as usual.

Worse than after 9/11? Wait a minute, you just said above that one day of not-operating would "certainly be the death of a couple carriers". If memory serves (and I was sitting watching the senate hearings while NOTHING was flying in the skies except military aircraft), we were almost a WEEK without a SINGLE COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT operating in U.S. airspace, and I don't seem to remember it being "the death of a couple carriers".

And how many carriers ultimately ended up bankrupt even after being given government loans? How many hundreds of thousands of airline jobs have been lost in the last 7 years? I’m sorry. The industry has not fully recovered and some of the smaller carriers who have been losing money would not survive another shot to the head. The executives will still get their payouts while many of us are kicking turds down the road.

If the industry ever DID a system-wide SOS, who would be commuting to work?

Oh yeah, that's right. YOU would still be going to work, along with the rest of the pilots who have no backbone.

Hint #2: It's a SYSTEM-WIDE STOPPAGE OF SERVICE. NO ONE goes to work. NO ONE commutes until the SOS is over. Get it yet?

For the love of Pete...

Kinda scary that this basic concept is so foreign that you are talking about going to work during a work stoppage. Basic cognitive skills ARE required of an airline pilot.

I get it just fine and I wasn’t talking about going to work during an SOS. I’m talking about trying to get to work or go home once the SOS is over and it takes several days for everyone to be back up to a full schedule. Good luck.