How low will you go?

[Sticky]

Some questions for all you guys in the regional world. Please keep in mind I mean no disrespect. After months reading all the posts about regional pilot pay, I'm finally stumped and have to ask these questions. Keep in mind I'm a commercial pilot too, but don't fly passengers or cargo.



1. Why does it seem like there is a competition to see who can do the other pilots job for less?



2. Why do the senior pilots in your company allow such low starting salaries?



3. Aren’t you all on the same team?


4. Doesn't it bother you that many of your routes were flow by the majors just 5 years ago? Yet you're doing the same job as they were for close to 30% the pay?



5. Isn't it time to say enough is enough?



When I taxi by you guys and gals in those RJ's, I do feel envious. Maybe someday I'll make the move to the regionals. However, it is hard to justify leaving a job that is very stable, fun, get to wear shorts and sandals, and make almost as much money as the captain on that RJ.



Mike

 

[Mike man]

I'm really at a loss as to what to say about that...perhaps someone with a qucik whit can pipe in and turn this into a flame thread about mesa, etc and poor spelling and grammar skills...have at it.

But it seems to me that everywhere business is/are cutting costs...many call centers for comapines are overseas (read India) I'm sure many airline call center employees have lost jobs in the past years due to the call center being moved to India. How can all the pilots stand for that? Don't send your children to charter schools (charter school teachers are lowering the bar for public school teacher salaries). Don't drive your car anymore because most of its parts are outsourced to the lowest bidder (a race to the bottom--you don't think so because your car is $1000's less because of competitive bids)...mind you that undercutting is bad, but a competitive bid is not.

If a city pair market can not support a 777 then use a 767, if it can't support that then use a 757, if it can't support that use a 737, if it can't support that use an MD80, if it can't support that then use a 50 seat RJ, if it can't support that use a 40/37/32 seat jet. Empty airplanes don't make money, simple economics dictates that.

How can Delta/United/NWA/etc pilots support ALPA when UPS and FedEx senior captians make far less than the pilotsat UPS/FedEx for driving the same equipment 767/747. Why does ALPA sell out its airlines, someone making so much more than the same position at a different airline. Perhaps we should move to a system, like European airlines, where a 5th year 737 F/O makes the same at each airline...perhaps all simmilar pilot positions should make +/- 10% of each other, and that under bidding can not occur by having a standing competitive bid and contract carriers and wholy owned carriers are rewarded by truly being the best, not the cheapest. Or perhaps government regulation should come back and help everyone get their stuff together. And why doesn't anyone ever get mad at Southwest for underbidding markets...DAL-HOU=$99...LAX-PHX=$39, they will be loosing money on most markets later this month when the big sale starts (USA Today 7/7/04).

I don't want to offend anyone--with my thoughts, grammar, spelling, etc.--I just like stimulating discussion. Let's for once keep this adult, well at least for a while anyway!

M.O.

 

[Sticky]

Mike-



Thanks for the well thought reply. I only wish they could all be like this. In response to your point that airlines need to cut expenses, I see two problems. Do you really think they HONESTLY can't afford to pay first year pilot more then 17,000-22,000? If that’s true, how come some of the regionals can afford to have dozens of RJs on order? If I were a 4 year college grad with all the responsibility of an airline pilot, I'd be embarrassed with an 18,000 income. As you know, a high school dropout probably makes more then that. I can offer a simple correction to this problem. Stop the airlines from the downward spiral with ticket prices. All airline pilots should DEMAND their passengers pay a ticket price that allows for a professional income for the flight crews.



As far as your ALPA comments, I really don't know much about it. Maybe ALPA has gotten too big? With cargo, majors, and regionals all in the same union, I'd think it would cause a conflict of interest.



Mike

 

[pilotyip]

repeat from another thread

A high school drop out can make a living flying an airplane and have a skill level equal to anyone out there driving airplanes, in fact I know one at a major. Doctors can not. Doctor's are trained in unique specialties; they have an elimination process with many obstacles to overcome to get to their profession operating level. When you need a heart transplant, or have cancer, you make sure you have best available in that field and you pay whatever he wants. Pilots on the other hand are a commodity, a company or an airline needs a COM/INST/MEL rated pilot, there are 1,000's to chose from, and the job goes to the lowest bidder. Skill above a minimum level means little to the employer. In fact the skill level above the minimum has little to do with the hiring process, personality, work ethic, etc, play more into the pilot hiring process than hours and ratings. Anyone with a certain level of skill and some desire can become a pilot. Doctors become pilots all the time, and any doctor with the desire and skill can become a pilot. (I know, I know they kill themselves in airplanes, but that is more a personality fault, than a skill short fall) The reverse is not true very few professional pilots have the skill to become doctors. I love flying, do it as much as I can, and I enjoy flying anything with wings, and that is reason I came back to aviation. But I think sometimes pilots have a misplaced why they fly, if you are in it because you like flying, you will not be disappointed. If you are in for the money, you may be disappointed. If you want money become a doctor. Read "The Big Chill" thread, there is a real pilot telling his life story.

 

[Bluto]

1. Why does it seem like there is a competition to see who can do the other pilots job for less?
--CEO's and upper management decide how much they will bid for specific flying. When major partners are cutting back, they must bid lower to garner market share.

2. Why do the senior pilots in your company allow such low starting salaries?
--Lower starting salaries mean higher senior pilot salaries. Is this really that complicated? Think about it this way, if you were senior and had worked for less than current starting pay at your company, would you voluntarily reduce your income to raise that of those junior to you? If you would, you're in the minority. If not, this would happen any time a contract came up for renewal.

3. Aren’t you all on the same team?
--No. This isn't a sport, or a game. If you don't watch out for your own best interests in this industry noone will.

4. Doesn't it bother you that many of your routes were flow by the majors just 5 years ago? Yet you're doing the same job as they were for close to 30% the pay?
--Heck yeah. So? What are we going to do about it? There's nothing that a pilot group can do to change these things. This is the direction of the industry. I believe things will get better, but that we'll never see an industry like we had in the early 90's.

5. Isn't it time to say enough is enough?
--Sure. Go ahead. Say it. Think it'll change anything?


When I taxi by you guys and gals in those RJ's, I do feel envious. Maybe someday I'll make the move to the regionals. However, it is hard to justify leaving a job that is very stable, fun, get to wear shorts and sandals, and make almost as much money as the captain on that RJ.
--Sounds like a great job. I'd keep it if I were you.


Mike

You ask good questions Mike, sadly the answers are complicated. The bottom line is that there really isn't much we, as pilots, can do to change it.

 

[Sticky]

Pilotyip-

You bring up some very good points. For the most part, I think you're right. In fact, I can't really even counter them. I only have one remark really. I agree that pilots are not rocket scientists, and doctors do have more skills, education, and training. But does that really justify regional pilot pay? Regional pilots probably shouldn't expect to make doctor salary, but come on, 17,000 dollars to start?



Bluto-



Your post kinda bummed me out. I maybe be going out on a limb here, but maybe things are the way there are because of your type of attitude. Captains not supporting junior pilots is sad. You should see all the flight crews in your company as a team. Very little can be done by the individual. When you all stand together, things get done. Yes Bluto, saying "enough is enough" will change things. You all just need to say it together and very loud. Oh..and by the way, the public will support you when they learn about the starting salaries. The American working man never likes to hear about some other worker being taking at advantage of.

Mike

 

[jetstream]

It all comes down to barganing power. When there is an abundant supply of pilots and the major airline your company supplies connecting flights for has a "portfolio" of carriers from which to choose it leaves any one pilot group in a weak barganing position.

The company is not hurt if you get fed up and quit because there is a long line of pilots willing to take your place. A strike by one of its connection carriers is a problem but can be covered by the other carriers in the "portfolio". A strike by the mainline pilots would be far more serious because there is no one take over the flying.

 

[rvsm410]

And the seniority system locks people in to the airline they work for, the airlines love it because they know you dont want to start over somewhere else....they got you!

A national seniority system would change that senerio, but alot of other things might change as well...just a random thought.....

 

[Mike man]

Barganing power is bull$hit...ALPA has a conflight of interest.


If you look at a Doctors education it is somewhat simmilar to ours...
Doctors don't start at $250,000 a year, and neither do pilots...Doctors start as an intern working 80+ hours a week for very little money $20,000/year or so...then they are residents for about $30,000/year or so...then they specalize as residents 2-7 years still at around $30,000/year...once that is all said and done 4 years of undergraduate, three yeras of medical school, one year of interning, 3-7 years as a resident and to specalize then they make the big bucks...simmilar to airline pilots...they start slow but the pay off at the end is the reward...same as Doctors.


The airlines should pay more, and they can afford to pay more.
UAW car makers make $25-40/hr to start as UNSKILLED LABOR!

Mike Oxlong

 

[halfmoon]

At the end of the day there is always someone out there that will work for less money. You think its just aviation? its everywhere.
Lets all resign today, in two weeks out positions will be filled by other pilots working for less.

 

[Sticky]

The airlines should pay more, and they can afford to pay more.
UAW car makers make $25-40/hr to start as UNSKILLED LABOR!

Mike Oxlong

Halfmoon, please read this. This is how you stop from what you just said from happening.



Right on Mike. Hate to repeat myself, but its up to the pilots to force their companies pass along the expense of having professional flight crews to the American consumer. Perhaps it sounds too simple, but all it would take is a 3 or 4 dollar per ticket increase. If the flight crews (FA & Pilots) split that, everyone’s pay would increase by thousands. The only problem is getting all your competitors to do the same. That’s were your union should be helping you. As far as enforcing it, isn't that what the little black book is for? It may sound cruel, but their should be a list of pilots (whether they're 22 and right out of ERAU or 45 and out of the military) that have proven they're willing to under cut you by working for peanuts. That list means that they will never see a union job, or even a jump seat on your airline. That should be a deterrent for pilots to work at those companies. Even if it means getting a temporary non-flying job until things get better. In the end guys, even with the harsh rules of the "little black book", it will be good for all pilots.

Mike

 

[Draginass]

Very simple answer. Gross overabundance of pilots and lots of 200 hour multi guys out there that would sell their grandmother to get that job for $17k a year in hopes of moving up. And then there are the senior union guys that could prevent that, but the company knows all they have to do is keep the 51% relatively satisfied know that they'll sell out the bottom 49%. And it doesn't matter if it's a regional union or major union. Look at the ridiculous 16 year contract that AE ALPA signed.

Find out what a NY City Bus Driver, or a trash collector makes as compared to a regional F/O based in NYC.

The public doesn't give a rat's behind about anything other than price of a plane ticket. Only if planes start crashing do they care about experience, maintenance, or safety. And even then, heck, that happened to someone else . . . screw 'em.

 

[I'm42]

Sticky, what should happen and what does happen are two entirely different things. There are too many of us around to ever reach what should happen. We're not the only industry that doesn't pay a living wage to start, but at least it gets better later on -- assuming that we can all keep our jobs.

 

[Sticky]

Find out what a NY City Bus Driver, or a trash collector makes as compared to a regional F/O based in NYC.

That right there makes my blood boil. However, you must factor how undesirable the job is into the pay. State prison guards make more then regional FOs too. Do you want to work in a prison? I know a guy in Philly who climbs up 50-70 tall trees with only those friction belts holding him. He makes almost 800 a week. What’s the catch (excuse the pun )? Odds are that after 3 years you will fall and either die or cripple yourself for life.

 

[blzr]

Keep in mind I'm a commercial pilot too, but don't fly passengers or cargo.


How can you be a commercial pilot and not fly one of the two? does someone pay you to burn gas? if so, where can I sign up?

 

[Sticky]

Blzr-

Hehehe....airplanes are good for more then just passengers and cargo. I'm a little cautious to say what I do or who I work for. The last thing I need is for some interviewer to read this stuff, then down the road connect the dots.

 

[blzr]

ok. just curious. My only other guess would be skydivers or banner tow. most regionals don't care what or where you flew, only that you have the mins and they like you. oh, and if you will work for their pay rates.

 

[flyby]

Very simple answer. Gross overabundance of pilots and lots of 200 hour multi guys out there that would sell their grandmother to get that job for $17k a year in hopes of moving up. And then there are the senior union guys that could prevent that, but the company knows all they have to do is keep the 51% relatively satisfied know that they'll sell out the bottom 49%. And it doesn't matter if it's a regional union or major union. Look at the ridiculous 16 year contract that AE ALPA signed.

Find out what a NY City Bus Driver, or a trash collector makes as compared to a regional F/O based in NYC.

The public doesn't give a rat's behind about anything other than price of a plane ticket. Only if planes start crashing do they care about experience, maintenance, or safety. And even then, heck, that happened to someone else . . . screw 'em.

This guy (Draginass) is exactly right. As a CFI I made between 12 and 17 an hour depending on the school. I never made more than 6000 or so in any year. Now I make 21 an hour flying an RJ. I also get travel and health benefits. This job is better than my last, even at 21/hour.

What I don't understand is why the concept of supply and demand seems to escape so many of my fellow pilots. Furthermore, many of us complain that the public should somehow be appalled that we're only making 17k/year. As Draginass said, the public could give a shiznit what we make. Pilots are commodities, pure and simple. Pegs to fill holes. Why buy a $3000 Dell computer when you can buy the same computer with a different name for half that and it does the same job? Commodity.

Finally, dude, if you're wearing shorts and sandals to work making 55-110k (the range of salaries the Captains I fly with earn) then you would be a fool to quit that gig.

good luck!

 

[Sticky]

Finally, dude, if you're wearing shorts and sandals to work making 55-110k (the range of salaries the Captains I fly with earn) then you would be a fool to quit that gig.

Well...OK...I don't make that, I was implying the caps that make in the high 30s, low 40s.

Flyby-



Thanks for the response. Although I understand your arguments, I must disagree. Just because your new "jet job" paid you more then CFIing, doesn't make it right. You shouldn't feel that since you made 6000 a year instructing, 17,000 is somehow OK. Where do you draw the line? Would you have done it for 12,000 a year? That’s still better then CFIing. I don't mean to attack you, but I just think that is the attitude that causes the low pay. I realize that pilots are a dime a dozen, but that shouldn't mean they all must live on food stamp wage.

 

[flyby]

Sticky,

This career for the majority of us follows a progression. Regardless of money the drive to move to the next level is very powerful. Making those steps can be quite fulfilling... makes ya feel good to accomplish your goals. Pay me a little more and put me in a plane that more closely represents my ultimate goal and you can see why so many pilots are lined up to work for lowish wages. Now, however, with the retreat in salaries you find some of the 'stepping stone' jobs pay well comparatively speaking and makes people like yourself wonder why you should ever leave. Who could blame you? Just depends on what you want out of your flying career.

As for your question, if this job paid only 12k a year I might still take it but be a lot more inclined to leave it and return to being a CFI. You can see this same attitude in many pilots... anxious to hit the line with the engines spooled up and fairly soon realize that 'living the dream' isn't paying well. But then again, maybe that's why it doesn't pay 12k a year. If regional airlines lowered their salaries to 12k/year they would have a hard time finding pilots. The market is figuring out what newhires should make. Each one of us makes up this market.

once again, good luck!!