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Delta vs ASA

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benjakes

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
Posts
65
I had this in a delta thread, but recieved PM's to move it.

I placed it in the regional section also, as I am not taking sides...


Few things out of the way. I am not a pilot. I cannot spell.

I am a VP of Sales for a Fortune 100. Loyal Delta, Platinum 1.6 MM miles.
I post about once a year, turned onto the site by neighbors
I am scared to say, I have an MBA from Kellog.
I generally buy my tickets 24-48 hours ahead of time through American Express Travel. I used to sit up front all the time, but 1/3 to half my flights don't have 1st anymore.

A few observations:

I would prefer that we go back to the good old days when a lot less people flew, and you were treated better. I correlate the service to what I pay for nowadays. (On a side note, I have had more captains speak to me or come and thank me for flying in the last two months than I have in the last ten years. I love it, but am curious, was it mandated by ALPA)?

With the supply of pilots being so great, and a shift in the paradiym of the industry, I believe that pilots have to take control of thier lives, and careers.

1.-Your Union has to get strong. It is not. It needs to treat all pilots equally. By doing so, you will get support from the lower tier, and you can bring much more pressure to management. Currently, management is using the devide and conquer technique, very effectivly I may add. Look at the division on this board as an example. You have the "upper class" (legacy) who ALPA activly supports, trying to maintain thier wage and scope. Y'all refuse to let the "peasants" (regionals) into your company, or cockpit. The regionals just want to have a career path to the upper class. Since they don't have one, they make out the best they can today, and HOPE for better in the future. They have no choice, many of them went to the same schools the upper class did, but have less income to pay for it. If you all became one family, you could limit the supply, and INCREASE the demand of pilots, and keep all non-active union out, and your wages would top declining, and probably start increasing again.

Think about if the ASA, Comair, and Delta pilots negotiated as one. Yes some would lose, but the power you have is much greater, and many more would win, especially in the long run. Combine that with American, Airtran, etc, where the union would all equally, regionals and majors. Don't allow another company to do your flying. If they buy someone, make them combine the books and treat everyone equally. Embrace each other. It amazes me that y'all blame each other, no one fixes it, and management continues to bend you over.

Side note: House to left of me: Delta Pilot. House to right of me ASA. Both great guys, about the same age. Both my best friends. Great families. Don't talk to each other, both out of stubborn bitterness. I don't think they have ever spoke.... SAD!

2-The goverment needs to stop subsidizing airlines. If you can't make a profit, let a few airlines go out of business. It would lower the supply of seats, drive up revenue, and margin per seat, and save the other airlines. Again, a few lose, but many more pilots win.

3-Average income: Ok, for sake of disclosure, I make too much, and am management. I am over 200k. I HATE my job, and have to deal with morons above and below me 60 hours a week. I just want to point out to all that real income for Lawyers and Doctors has declined over the last ten years. The average income is less or comparable to pilots. Overall, y'all are hanging in their statistically.

All United StatesPhysiciansOverallPublished2004Jul$57.90
All United StatesLawyersOverallPublished2004Jul$48.60

All United StatesAirplane pilots and navigatorsOverallPublished2004Jul$113.82

*please see http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/outside.jsp?survey=nc for verification of above.

I'll go away again, but please keep thanking me for flying Delta, it makes a difference. It takes me back 20 years..... Now if we could work on the flight attendants.....
 
Just wait until outsourcing hits pilots. Local dudes in Asia flying the Asia stuff. Gonna happen.
 
2-The goverment needs to stop subsidizing airlines. If you can't make a profit, let a few airlines go out of business. It would lower the supply of seats, drive up revenue, and margin per seat, and save the other airlines. Again, a few lose, but many more pilots win.

Subsidizing? HA! Thats a good one! Try bleeding airlines to death! An airline ticket is TAXED by the government at a rate higher than that of a bottle of booze or a carton of cigarettes. A sin tax on an airline ticket! It's a cash cow for the government at the expense of airline's and, ultimately, their employees. Remember, the ATSB was loan gaurantees ...not cash payments to airlines. A fact that most morons in the press forget too....
 
DTW320 said:
Subsidizing? HA! Thats a good one! Try bleeding airlines to death! An airline ticket is TAXED by the government at a rate higher than that of a bottle of booze or a carton of cigarettes. A sin tax on an airline ticket! It's a cash cow for the government at the expense of airline's and, ultimately, their employees. Remember, the ATSB was loan gaurantees ...not cash payments to airlines. A fact that most morons in the press forget too....

I am not an expert, but my response:

Like Miller and Bud, the tax is the same on all domestic tickets, is it not?
Guarantee's, and I apologize to some up front, is what saved some of your pensions. Where does the money come from?

I giggled when I read an earlier post from someone stating that due to the aitlines the ATSB had a very profitable year. He/She missed the point that it is only a paper profit, and likely never will be collected.
 
benjakes said:
I am not an expert, but my response:

Like Miller and Bud, the tax is the same on all domestic tickets, is it not?

Yes, but Miller's cost of doing business may be lower (or higher) than Bud's.

A lowering of the tax structure would allow the more efficient carriers to show a profit, while the hoplessly inefficient would still be in the crapper - to a lesser degree.
 
As long as we're sharing hits from the bong you might want to add:

-Management and labor need to hug each other more often
-The flying public should be educated on our profession via a 40 hour training seminar
-Human nature must be fundamentally changed

Seriously, you make some good points but they are largely unattainable.
 
benjakes said:
I just want to point out to all that real income for Lawyers and Doctors has declined over the last ten years. The average income is less or comparable to pilots. Overall, y'all are hanging in their statistically.

All United StatesPhysiciansOverallPublished2004Jul$57.90
All United StatesLawyersOverallPublished2004Jul$48.60

All United StatesAirplane pilots and navigatorsOverallPublished2004Jul$113.82

*please see http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/outside.jsp?survey=nc for verification of above.

I'll go away again, but please keep thanking me for flying Delta, it makes a difference. It takes me back 20 years..... Now if we could work on the flight attendants.....


Typical. If people only knew. The ATA has done one he!! of a job convincing Joe public that Pilots are overpaid. (I made less than 15K the fist five years of my flying career) No mention of the first-year regional guys who qualify for food stamps, and spend thier nights stocking grocery store shelves to make ends meet. No mention that it take YEARS of povertly level wages to get to the airlines. No mention that the above rates are PER HOUR rates, and that Pilots only get paid when the fan is spinning. No mention that the above statistics only include LEGACY carriers. No mention that we bet our entire career on whatever company we go to, and that if we bet poorly we start over at the bottom of the payscale and senority list. No mention that we work roughly 2 hours for each hour we are paid, and are away from home 3-4 hours for every hour we are paid. I could go on but it has all been said. If only some reporter would tell the real story, instead of quoting Deltas' tag line " The average pilot makes 157 K per year (those greedy Bastards)"
 
EUT:

I want to clarify a few things:

EUT said:
Typical. If people only knew. The ATA has done one he!! of a job convincing Joe public that Pilots are overpaid.

The statistics did not come from ATA. Y'all have no right to set my wage, I have no right to set yours.

I never said Pilots are overpaid (I made less than 15K the fist five years of my flying career) No mention of the first-year regional guys who qualify for food stamps, and spend thier nights stocking grocery store shelves to make ends meet. No mention that it take YEARS of povertly level wages to get to the airlines.

This is ALLOWED by ALPA. I sympathize, I really do. My point is that only PILOTS can fix this through ALPA. Unless the supply of pilots dry up, this will never be changed by management. It is cruel to do to someone, expecially if that person has a family and student loans.....

No mention that the above rates are PER HOUR rates, and that Pilots only get paid when the fan is spinning.

Sorry, I implied this with my statement that it is inline with DRs and Lawyers.

No mention that the above statistics only include LEGACY carriers.
This is incorrect. It includes non-legacy, and FO's.

No mention that we bet our entire career on whatever company we go to, and that if we bet poorly we start over at the bottom of the payscale and senority list.

This is ********************ty too.

No mention that we work roughly 2 hours for each hour we are paid, and are away from home 3-4 hours for every hour we are paid.
I know this. I am in the same boat. every day I am gone, I only get paid for 8 out of 24. ********************ty.

I could go on but it has all been said. If only some reporter would tell the real story, instead of quoting Deltas' tag line " The average pilot makes 157 K per year (those greedy Bastards)"

I don't think this, and certainly never said it.

Good luck to you.
 
I agree with benjakes 100%. ALPA and APA missed the boat in the late '90s when the RJs started showing up. These commuter aircraft are not piper cheiftans!! They are modern twin engine jets and the pilots should have been paid for that. The unions focused on scope (Division) when the should have said to the company but all the RJs you want but all jet flying is to be done by our members. Integrate the lists (Probably the most painful part). Flowup and Flow back would be seemless. GET THE PILOTS OF THE RJS PAID A WAGE THAT WOULDN'T GIVE THE COMPANY AN ADVANTAGE OF USING AN RJ OVER A DC-9 BASED ON CREW WAGES AND BENEFITS!!! Then check you ego at the door and if the company needs to fly 90% RJs cause they are the answers to our industries woes-- so be it.
What are the ALPA union dues? 1 to 2 %? What did you get for that? All that money and all those smart union guys could think of was scope. Scope has not served us well. It is time to try something new!! Hell, if you paid me 250k as an airline captain should be paid. I would fly a cessna 150 10 days a month (which is all he should work). My point is who cares what you fly as long as your pay and benies are good. My dream of a United Airlines 747 went out the door a long time ago.
 

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