Delta "likely" to scrap Pilot Pension Plan

[General Lee]

Delta 'most likely' will scrap pilot pension plan
During first day of arbitration hearing between Bankrupt airline and its pilots Delta's lawyer says pilot's pension plan 'likely' to be terminated.
March 13, 2006: 12:15 PM EST

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines Inc. said Monday that it was probable that its pilots' underfunded pension plan would be terminated.
"It looks more likely than not," said Jack Gallagher, a lawyer for the airline, commenting on the possibility the pension plan would be scuttled.

He was speaking on the first day of an arbitration hearing on the separate issue of whether Delta should be allowed to void the pilots' contract as it seeks to cut costs to emerge from bankruptcy.




The question is: Will we get CREDIT for it? United got a 15% match every month in their DC program. That would be nice. But, this again shows us that saving the pension is a "pipe dream" and we should focus more on stopping the pay cuts (with eventual snap backs---DL even offered a low 1.5% give back in 2009?) and SCOPE. NW didn't focus on scope because their old guys wanted a pension. We are not under that same ILLUSION. SCOPE is more important now.




Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[737 Pylt]

We knew this was coming....Now let's move on with it and get the scope protection that should be in there. Also wages need to come up!
737

 

[Dizel8]

One would hope, that scrapping of the pension will show up as a large give back from the pilots and that y'all will get some serious credit for it, ie no more wage concession as 737plt says.

 

[General Lee]

We knew this was coming....Now let's move on with it and get the scope protection that should be in there. Also wages need to come up!
737

Ummm yeah. And, there will be NO exit financing without an agreement with the pilots, so we should be able to negotiate something, allowing the company to save some money (ALPA said $200 million a year on pilot pensions alone) also. The CFO apparently talked a lot about a large 787 order AFTER we exit bankruptcy (can you say CARROT????), but I am also concerned about everything over 70 seats, and that should be our first priority. It is mine. No more pay cuts either, and pay coming back to us also eventually.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

One would hope, that scrapping of the pension will show up as a large give back from the pilots and that y'all will get some serious credit for it, ie no more wage concession as 737plt says.

You would think that(we all would). United settled their pay cuts before they dumped their pensions, although they did agree to give the 15% match to the remaining employees after the dump. It is good that we are getting this out in the open while we are still negotiating.(or attempting to)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Green]

You would think that(we all would). United settled their pay cuts before they dumped their pensions, although they did agree to give the 15% match to the remaining employees after the dump. It is good that we are getting this out in the open while we are still negotiating.(or attempting to)


Bye Bye--General Lee

I could be wrong but I beleive that the UAL contribution is not a match but a guaranteeed company contribution. In other words if you don't contribute a cent of your own money to the plan, the company will still contribute 15% of your earnings into your 401k.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Delta's savings a year if they take your pension = 200 million
The amount Delta is losing per day = 6 million
The amount of days it will take Delta to blow your pensions = 33-34 days

OUCH.
Not priceless

Good luck

 

[CFIT]

Get a clue-

We knew this was coming....Now let's move on with it and get the scope protection that should be in there. Also wages need to come up!
737

ABSOLUTELY!

ROCK ON BROTHER!!

You have to get all of this fixed now! You need huge raises and should take back all the RJ flying (it's yours right? not the companies) and the min starting pay can't be less than 140hr. The furloughes get to tap the new hire FA classes and drive to training in new cars from the company.

The old cotract slogan was "United plus a Dollar", is the new one going to be "Southwest plus 2 bucks"?

You guys are truly brilliant.

Your airline isn't dead yet, youv'e managed to cut it off at the knees, now drive a stake thru it's heart.

Anyway all that talk of losing billions is just that, talk.

Get what is truly yours!

 

[Einstein]

We knew this was coming....Now let's move on with it and get the scope protection that should be in there. Also wages need to come up!
737

That's right AUNT BEA. Let em hear you.

 

[Rogue5]

The question is: Will we get CREDIT for it? United got a 15% match every month in their DC program. That would be nice. But, this again shows us that saving the pension is a "pipe dream" and we should focus more on stopping the pay cuts (with eventual snap backs---DL even offered a low 1.5% give back in 2009?) and SCOPE. NW didn't focus on scope because their old guys wanted a pension. We are not under that same ILLUSION. SCOPE is more important now.

I'm not too bright, but I sure am glad General Lea CAPITALIZES all the important points like Bill O'Reilly so I can follow along...

 

[General Lee]

Delta's savings a year if they take your pension = 200 million
The amount Delta is losing per day = 6 million
The amount of days it will take Delta to blow your pensions = 33-34 days

OUCH.
Not priceless

Good luck

You forgot about the total amount they are paying for all of the pensions--about $800 million a year.(they will save all of that, and they are just starting with the pilot pensions, the rest are next) So, add $800 million to that (a $10.6 BILLION obligation) They have brought down all of the other costs, including $200 million a year on just 88 different aircraft that were leased. Then we gave them $1 billion a year for 5 years, and just gave them a 14% pay cut which saves them an additional $152 million a year on December 15th of last year. Have you factored in all of that? I didn't think so. Also, Southwest just raised fares $10 each way, and our best seasons are Spring and Summer flying, which will boost revenue if we don't liquidate this place with an unfortunate strike. Any more questions? Priceless indeed.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I'm not too bright, but I sure am glad General Lea CAPITALIZES all the important points like Bill O'Reilly so I can follow along...

Yes, I do that for affect, and because some people need to actually SEE the important points.


Bye Bye--GENERAL LEE

 

[Rogue5]

Yes, I do that for affect, and because some people need to actually SEE the important points. (mainly for people in UTAH)


Bye Bye--GENERAL LEE

Sorry Jen,

Born and raised in The Great State of California...

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Ummm yeah. And, there will be NO exit financing without an agreement with the pilots, so we should be able to negotiate something, allowing the company to save some money (ALPA said $200 million a year on pilot pensions alone) also. The CFO apparently talked a lot about a large 787 order AFTER we exit bankruptcy (can you say CARROT????), but I am also concerned about everything over 70 seats, and that should be our first priority. It is mine. No more pay cuts either, and pay coming back to us also eventually.


Bye Bye---General Lee

The 787 is hardly a carrot, look at NWA pay rates on that airplane. It's going to be a great widebody addition.

 

[Draginass]

Likely?? YGBSM. More like certainly.

Stenland just bent NW ALPA over the sofa and they hardly wimpered. Delta's going to do the same thing, with the same results.

 

[General Lee]

Likely?? YGBSM. More like certainly.

Stenland just bent NW ALPA over the sofa and they hardly wimpered. Delta's going to do the same thing, with the same results.

Different priorities equals different results. We know the pensions are gone, they did NOT. We have a younger group (only 250 older than 55), and that means the loyalty is NOT there. You know that. They could always force a TA, but that doesn't mean we will pass it. We are now a "younger" group, with different needs.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[johnsonrod]

Likely?? YGBSM. More like certainly.

Stenland just bent NW ALPA over the sofa and they hardly wimpered. Delta's going to do the same thing, with the same results.

You sound like either a well-paid airline lawyer or a spin doctor... Nice try. From what I have heard, if the contract is thrown out, watch the pilots strike. It's really that simple.

 

[ualdriver]

Actually, we didn't actually get a 15% direct contribution (B+C plan) when the pilot pensions were cancelled at UAL. We already had a 9% direct contribution (B plan) from before. UAL ALPA negotiated an additional 6% "C plan" contribution when our pensions were cancelled, which gives you the total of 15% that we get now. And yes, it's not a company match. We get it even if we contribute nothing to our 401K's.

UAL ALPA was also able to negotiate a 550M bond for the pilot group as well. This proceeds from the sale of this bond is supposed to be distributed within 6 months of UAL's exit from bankruptcy and will be divided amongst the pilot group. You guys at DAL should DEFINITELY get something like that as well, and if I'm not mistaken, I thought I read somewhere that DALPA's MEC was looking at even a bigger figure than the 550M we're going to get.

 

[737 Pylt]

ABSOLUTELY!

ROCK ON BROTHER!!

You have to get all of this fixed now! You need huge raises and should take back all the RJ flying (it's yours right? not the companies) and the min starting pay can't be less than 140hr. The furloughes get to tap the new hire FA classes and drive to training in new cars from the company.

The old cotract slogan was "United plus a Dollar", is the new one going to be "Southwest plus 2 bucks"?

You guys are truly brilliant.

Your airline isn't dead yet, youv'e managed to cut it off at the knees, now drive a stake thru it's heart.

Anyway all that talk of losing billions is just that, talk.

Get what is truly yours!

CFIT:
Did someone pee in your cheerios?? Another arm chair CEO. I guess its all the pilots' fault the airline is in the position it is huh sparky? When I want advice on how to do turns around a point, I'll call you, otherwise let us worry about DL, and you worry about flying "partial panel" ils approaches. 737

 

[Green]

Actually, we didn't actually get a 15% direct contribution (B+C plan) when the pilot pensions were cancelled at UAL. We already had a 9% direct contribution (B plan) from before. UAL ALPA negotiated an additional 6% "C plan" contribution when our pensions were cancelled, which gives you the total of 15% that we get now. And yes, it's not a company match. We get it even if we contribute nothing to our 401K's.

UAL ALPA was also able to negotiate a 550M bond for the pilot group as well. This proceeds from the sale of this bond is supposed to be distributed within 6 months of UAL's exit from bankruptcy and will be divided amongst the pilot group. You guys at DAL should DEFINITELY get something like that as well, and if I'm not mistaken, I thought I read somewhere that DALPA's MEC was looking at even a bigger figure than the 550M we're going to get.

Do the retired pilots who are losing anywhere from 65-85% of their retirements get to share any of that $550M bond, or are they getting sold out by the membership....again????

 

[Andy]

Do the retired pilots who are losing anywhere from 65-85% of their retirements get to share any of that $550M bond, or are they getting sold out by the membership....again????

Both the retirees and furloughees got screwed out of any proceeds from the bond.

 

[CFIT]

CFIT:
Did someone pee in your cheerios?? Another arm chair CEO. I guess its all the pilots' fault the airline is in the position it is huh sparky? When I want advice on how to do turns around a point, I'll call you, otherwise let us worry about DL, and you worry about flying "partial panel" ils approaches. 737

WOW

Great come back, did the Gen whisper that in your ear?

Turns around a point?
Hav'nt thought of that for over 30 years, couldn't do one if I had to.

 

[Lear70]

Originally Posted by Draginass
Likely?? YGBSM. More like certainly.

Stenland just bent NW ALPA over the sofa and they hardly wimpered. Delta's going to do the same thing, with the same results.

You sound like either a well-paid airline lawyer or a spin doctor... Nice try. From what I have heard, if the contract is thrown out, watch the pilots strike. It's really that simple.

Ummm... Depends.

Yes, the demographics at Delta are drastically different, and if there IS going to be a pilot group who's going to hold the line, Delta has the last chance to prove it's THEM.

The red-book group at Northwest has, historically, been the determining factor in EVERY SINGLE CONTRACT VOTE since the early 80's. They still represent something like 40% of the group, so if they vote yes and 75% of the remaining 60% vote NO, the contract STILL passes by a 5% margin which is what MOST of the NWA pilots think is going to happen.

Yes, I capitalize the stress points also, it helps since you can't audibly "hear" what I'm trying to get across.

The vote hasn't even been SCHEDULED yet, the rest of the pilot group is screaming at them at the top of their lungs that their pensions are gone, but no one is listening, they're just going about their business hoping and praying everything will be OK. It's the biggest self-delusion I've ever seen amongst a group of professional aviators.

The Delta demographics show that a LARGE percentage is still under 50 and able to get a job elsewhere and finish out a decent career. I know you don't want to hear it, but at the rate AirTran, jetBlue, and Southwest are hiring you'll upgrade in 3-5 years and be back making 6 figures.

It's NOT a bad job market to be in any longer, you DO have options other than to bend over as the Northwest pilots seem hell-bent on doing.

My prediction: all these carriers get these HUGE cuts, dump the pensions, then within the next 2-3 years Southwest and other fuel-hedged LCC's have to increase their ticket prices to cover fuel so all the Legacy carriers can go up in ticket prices as well and we'll see 5 years of record profits and management will claim it was the contract concessions, NOT the ticket price increases that did it and the next round of negotiations will be even HARDER to get back things that were lost. Everyone knows it's harder to get lost items BACK in negotiations than to keep them to begin with.

Good luck to all of you at Delta and the extended DL family. We're not counting on you to "hold the line" - there's too many carriers that have already dropped that particular ball to make any difference now - if Northwest had held the line in ADDITION to Delta it might have, but now, for your own sakes alone, I hope you guys and gals get as much as you possibly can while still guaranteeing a profitable company.

 

[Pat Fabin]

Thanks Lear70,

Nice to see some rational thoughts and analysis here. Oh, and for all those watching this deal so far the company's retirement offer is a 9% B-fund across the board w/2% 401k match if pensions are terminated + $300 million bond that supposedly gains 10% per year.

I'm happy to see the B-fund become a fixed percentage for everyone vs. our controversial age-based matrix but it'd be nice to get up to 13-15%.

I'm a little fuzzy on the whole bond issue....how is it going to work at UAL? That has to be a tough task to distribute it 'evenly' throughout the seniority list.

-PF

 

[Green]

It sounds like a total screw job for the retirees. They get nothing. After having lost 80% of their retirement and fighting for the wages and working conditions over the years they get sold out by their younger "brethren." I would be pretty ashamed to be a UAL guy who voted yes for that deal. Sad...

 

[pw4000]

Oh no rally around the pilots get real mgt will do what they want.

 

[Andy]

It sounds like a total screw job for the retirees. They get nothing. After having lost 80% of their retirement and fighting for the wages and working conditions over the years they get sold out by their younger "brethren." I would be pretty ashamed to be a UAL guy who voted yes for that deal. Sad...

Also a screw job for the furloughees and recently retired. The $550 mil is only divided among current active pilots.

 

[ualdriver]

Actually, the furloughees had the opportunity to take their money out of the UAL A plan (pension) if they wanted to when they were furloughed, and many did.

 

[ultrarunner]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines Inc. said Monday that it was probable that its pilots' underfunded pension plan would be terminated.

There's a shocker!

 

[Andy]

Actually, the furloughees had the opportunity to take their money out of the UAL A plan (pension) if they wanted to when they were furloughed, and many did.

That amounted to around $2400 for me. On property for 1 3/4 years.