Delta 747's Out of Atlanta and Other Q & A's

[PuffDriver]

Pufff

You can thank Moak for loosing the first contract. All that was left to negotiate, was how the list would look on day one. Both sides had already agreed on a contract and a dynamic seniority list, but not on the initial ratio. Stevens offered Moak a compromise to each meet half way. Moak said no. Then Stevens offered Moak to just arbitrate that initial ratio. NOTHING ELSE. Moak said,"This is our last proposal, Take it or leave it". Stevens said no, but did not break negotiations. Moak got up and went home. Then he negotiated LOA 19 for less and now will accept exp arbitration. Go figure. Who left offer one on the table????? This could be all behind us if Moak would have accepted a compromise or arbitration on a SINGLE ITEM.

I believe that he made it clear from the outset, no arbitration. The only time arbitration is acceptable is under the guise of ALPA merger policy. I had not realized that a dynamic list had been agreed to, however, and I am glad it was not. Put simply, you do not get to benefit for retirements in the future--WE do. At least in my view. OUR careers stagnate now, not mine. The answer is that you MEC left offer 1 on the table. Our mec came to the table halfway. Accepting your offer would have meant 3/4 of the way. going to expedited arbitration would have likely meant 3/4 of the way. Don't you get that yet. Our proposal WAS the worst case scenario that we would accept? In short we weren't negotiating nor dictating. We came in with the lowest offer that would have been fair to us. Your guy wanted more. We explained that to him. We also tried to include your guys in negotiations that ultimately resulted in LOA 19 with no response. I suspect that your guys tried to play the "we won't be given deadlines" game, and lost.

Keep spinning though.

 

[PuffDriver]

I recently saw the first, all I can say is "bite me".


The first contract? Bite me? Wait till you see the next.

Why do you always say, "you"? How about "We"? If this goes to arbitration, Moak will obviously soften his seniority position because the only 2 proposals that NWAALPA were given we so slanted toward the DAL pilots, an arbitrator would laugh.


If this goes to arbitration, we will come out will guns blazing. We will also come out ahead. We have the pay, the widebodies, the bodies in place, and the contract.


With his new proposal, the DAL would also lose some "goodies", along with the NWA guys. As it should be.

What new proposal? Did I miss a meeting? What goodies?

 

[JAM-BRO]

I believe that he made it clear from the outset, no arbitration.

Again, this sounds to me like dictating on Moak's part, not negotiating. "Take it or leave it"

The only time arbitration is acceptable is under the guise of ALPA merger policy. I had not realized that a dynamic list had been agreed to, however, and I am glad it was not. Put simply, you do not get to benefit for retirements in the future--WE do. At least in my view. OUR careers stagnate now, not mine.

I agree with you 100%. We will be in this together.

The answer is that you MEC left offer 1 on the table. Our mec came to the table halfway. Accepting your offer would have meant 3/4 of the way. going to expedited arbitration would have likely meant 3/4 of the way. Don't you get that yet. Our proposal WAS the worst case scenario that we would accept? In short we weren't negotiating nor dictating. We came in with the lowest offer that would have been fair to us.

You guys offered something that looked good on day two. Our guys were looking at 5 year intervals. I saw a presentation that looked at the list on 2008, 2013, 2018,and 2023. I am glad we did not take that. Your last offer also included 1000 'phantom" DAL pilots that have not been hired yet. What you have to remember is that we are not Western or PanAm. We don't need this to survive. Neither do you. We will not sell seniority.

Your guy wanted more. We explained that to him. We also tried to include your guys in negotiations that ultimately resulted in LOA 19 with no response. I suspect that your guys tried to play the "we won't be given deadlines" game, and lost.

We never got a call to join the 'stab in the back' negotiations. If repeating to yourself that we were invited makes you feel better, go ahead. We all lost. We lost 2% pay raise plus the compounding interest of the additional 4%,4%,4% and 2% on DC contributions. To throw this away because you did not want to arbitrate ONE SINGLE ITEM is sort of irresponsible to ALL OF US.

Keep spinning though.

Water under the bridge now. We will soon see if your side is sincere about negotiating. Suppose to get together in mid May. Remember, both sides pounded out a joint contract in 20 days. If no contract by June, then I suspect bad things will come...

Take Care

 

[Occam's Razor]

Allow me to preview the next 6 pages of this thread:

"You started it!"

"Oh, huh! YOU did!"

"Did not!"

Did so!"

"Well, I have a quarter, and you don't!"

"I do too!"

"No you don't...that's 2 dimes and a nickel! That's not the same as a quarter! A quarter is better!"

"Oh, huh!"

"You're a poopy-head!"

"I know you are, but what am I!"

 

[JAM-BRO]

BUHUHAAAA!!!!!

Allow me to preview the next 6 pages of this thread:

"You started it!"

"Oh, huh! YOU did!"

"Did not!"

Did so!"

"Well, I have a quarter, and you don't!"

"I do too!"

"No you don't...that's 2 dimes and a nickel! That's not the same as a quarter! A quarter is better!"

"Oh, huh!"

"You're a poopy-head!"

"I know you are, but what am I!"

 

[CFI2766]

Children, children, CHILDREN.... Why don't you all have a nice glass of Ovaltine and a nap, you'll all feel better...

 

[NuGuy]

I'm getting dizzy from all the spin in here...

Barrffff....

 

[PuffDriver]

Allow me to preview the next 6 pages of this thread:

"You started it!"

"Oh, huh! YOU did!"

"Did not!"

Did so!"

"Well, I have a quarter, and you don't!"

"I do too!"

"No you don't...that's 2 dimes and a nickel! That's not the same as a quarter! A quarter is better!"

"Oh, huh!"

"You're a poopy-head!"

"I know you are, but what am I!"

If you say so.

 

[PuffDriver]

Again, this sounds to me like dictating on Moak's part, not negotiating. "Take it or leave it"

What part of "it was not negotiating" do you not get. Moak cam in with the lowest form of list we were wiling to accept without invoking merger policy. You want to call it lack of negotiating. I say there WAS NO negotiating. That was our offer. Take leave it, or give us better. You left it.


I agree with you 100%. We will be in this together.


You guys offered something that looked good on day two. Our guys were looking at 5 year intervals. I saw a presentation that looked at the list on 2008, 2013, 2018,and 2023. I am glad we did not take that. Your last offer also included 1000 'phantom" DAL pilots that have not been hired yet. What you have to remember is that we are not Western or PanAm. We don't need this to survive. Neither do you. We will not sell seniority.

We do not need this to survive, yet we are in this together. I beg to differ. I believe that we both need this to survive. in today's environment, AMR will likely file BK by the end of the year. Not only that, but they will have to use their own capital to exit, as the loan well has dried up. Trying to look at a seniority list merger 15 years down the road is asinine. The arbitrator will show you the reasoning why.



We never got a call to join the 'stab in the back' negotiations. If repeating to yourself that we were invited makes you feel better, go ahead.

If you want to keep denying it over and over, go ahead. You did get the call, from several places, not just the Delta MEC. Merely posturing on your MECs part. How else can the explain the dropping of the ball?

We all lost. We lost 2% pay raise plus the compounding interest of the additional 4%,4%,4% and 2% on DC contributions. To throw this away because you did not want to arbitrate ONE SINGLE ITEM is sort of irresponsible to ALL OF US.


Sorry, we did not feel the need to arbitrate. I'm sorry your ceo does not want to engage you guys with in interim agreement. That's a YP not an MP.



Water under the bridge now. We will soon see if your side is sincere about negotiating. Suppose to get together in mid May. Remember, both sides pounded out a joint contract in 20 days. If no contract by June, then I suspect bad things will come...



I hope so. it doesn't seem as if the joint contract will be the problem. :beer: