Commercial Check Ride Stuff...

[minitour]

1. Steep Spirals - When doing Steep Spirals, my CFI will oftenhave me turn with a large amount of bank when turning from "upwind" to"base" (if that makes sense). I'm having a hard time explainingto him that when I do that, the spot that I'm spiraling around goescompletely under the plane. My feelings are that the wind ispushing me over the object so I should: 1. Be wings level (orvery little bank) on "upwind" and 2. Crab into the wind on the"base" leg. Then I can turn "downwind" and "crosswind" with a lotof bank to keep the point over me.

Thoughts? Opinions? Tips?

2. Lazy Eights - Having a hard time getting the left ones towork. I think I may be trying to pitch up a bit much (just foundout I don't have to get it to Vso+5 for these). I guess I'm justnot putting in the right control inputs at the right times. Perhaps the nose should be "slicing" through the horizon at 45* insteadof 90*, but I'm told to keep pitching and banking until 90*.

Thoughts? Opinions? Tips?

3. Chandelles - Not quite getting it around to 180* on the rollout. It's still to PTS (usually 175* +/-5*) but I'm not justtrying to "qualify" here, I want to "perform". Perhaps a bit toomuch pitch up attitude too quickly? You're supposed to alterpitch in the first 90* and then bank angle in the second 90* but I'veheard that some get away with banking to 30*, pitching up to around 12*and then just riding it out.

Thoughts? Opinions? Tips?

4. Stalls - I need to be proficient at doing power on/offstalls. When I perform them, my first reaction is "oh, break thestall" so forward I push and the nose drops below the horizon. Obviously, my CFI is not happy since he wants the nose lowered only tothe horizon. My only concern with that is when I tried it the twotimes, we went into secondary stalls. Not something I want to doon the check ride.

Thoughts? Opinions? Tips?

5. Power Off 180* Accuracy Approaches - Okay, so I haven't donenot one with a CFI, but here's what I've been working on. Abeamthe 1000' marks on the runway (my point), I apply carb heat, close thethrottle, request the short approach, maintain altitude while trimmingfor best glide and then put it down. I'm not saying that it's theprettiest pattern in the world, but I can't find a PTS requirement fora "pattern". I've been told by a check airman that all I need todo is get it on the runway at or 200' beyond the aiming point whilemaintaining altitude initially to trim for best glide. So far,I've been doing this in my own little "I haven't been 'taught' theproper way" way. is this correct?

Thoughts? Opinions? Tips?

6. System Knowldege - Okay, so I've heard differing opinions onthis. A few opinions are that I will have to diagram the systems(electrical, hydraulic, fuel, etc.) for the airplanes that I'll beusing (C152 and C172RG). Doing the fuel system is easy since theyare easy systems, but I'm having a hard time memorizing the diagram forthe electrical system and hydraulic system. I can tell you allabout them, but I can't seem to be able to draw them out. Myfeelings on this are: It's in the book, I know how it works, if Iwant to build one, I'll look it up. The other opinions I havegotten are "if you can explain it, that's all that matters". I'dlike to be as prepared as possible going in to stage 3 (All C172RGFlights) so I don't bone this stage 2 Oral (which from what Iunderstand will be tougher than the actual check ride).

Thoughts? Opinions? Tips?

7. This is kind of a CFI check ride thing, but here goes. We were told (students) by the Examiner doing our CFI rides (when weget there) that if we don't use an actual checklist before landing(like...doing a flow, GUMPPSS, etc.) and stop once clear of the runwayto do a checklist, we will bust the checkride (he doesn't like hotplanes). Okay, no problem, but unless tower gives me instructionsto taxi to the ramp as/before I leave the runway, I always stop tocontact ground once clear. While I'm contacting ground I gothrough getting the lights, transponder, flaps, etc. I don'tnecessarily use a paper checklist, but I do hit all of theitems on the checklist (I have another flow for that). Is thereany reason to think that such a scenario will cause a bust?

Thoughts? Opinions? Tips?

8. Touch and Gos Complex - I don't like the idea of doing TnGs ina complex airplane. I've heard lots of stories of wellintentioned students/instructors reaching for flaps to bring them upand "oh sh*t that's the gear"ing it. I can't find a PTSrequirement for touch and goes for either the Commercial or CFI checkride. Any reason to think the examiner will bust me for wantingto be safe, clear the runway, do the flaps once clear and I have timeto THINK?

Thoughts? Opinions? Tips?

Thanks all for any help you can provide. I really appreciate it.

-mini

 

[avbug]

1. Steep Spirals - When doing Steep Spirals, my CFI will oftenhave me turn with a large amount of bank when turning from "upwind" to"base" (if that makes sense). I'm having a hard time explainingto him that when I do that, the spot that I'm spiraling around goescompletely under the plane. My feelings are that the wind ispushing me over the object so I should: 1. Be wings level (orvery little bank) on "upwind" and 2. Crab into the wind on the"base" leg. Then I can turn "downwind" and "crosswind" with a lotof bank to keep the point over me.

Use whatever bank is necessary, at any time. You're thinking too too much about the maneuver. Your bank should be steepest when flying downwind and "base," and shallowest into the wind and on your "crosswind."

2. Lazy Eights - Having a hard time getting the left ones towork. I think I may be trying to pitch up a bit much (just foundout I don't have to get it to Vso+5 for these). I guess I'm justnot putting in the right control inputs at the right times. Perhaps the nose should be "slicing" through the horizon at 45* insteadof 90*, but I'm told to keep pitching and banking until 90*.

Most instructors get this maneuver wrong. In the lazy eight, you should be slowly banking until you reach your maximum bank at the 90 degree point. You should be slowly pitching to the 45 degree point, nose up. Then you should be relaxing the pitch such at at the 90 degree point your nose is level on the horizon. At the 135 degree point your nose is at it's lowest below the horizon and you've taken out half the bank, and at the 180 degree position, you're again level with the horizon, in pitch and bank, rolling slowly into the next lazy eight in the opposite direction.

This maneuver happens slowly, deliberately, and it's not dramatic; it should lull you to sleep. It's a timing and control drill, and properly done, it's a sleeper for the checkride. Smoothness is the key.

3. Chandelles - Not quite getting it around to 180* on the rollout. It's still to PTS (usually 175* +/-5*) but I'm not justtrying to "qualify" here, I want to "perform". Perhaps a bit toomuch pitch up attitude too quickly? You're supposed to alterpitch in the first 90* and then bank angle in the second 90* but I'veheard that some get away with banking to 30*, pitching up to around 12*and then just riding it out.

You're a little confused on the chandelle, too. Your maximum pitch is reached by the 90 degree point; up until then you're gradually increasing pitch. Your bank is increasing until the 90 degree point, and gradually decreasing from there until the 180 degree point.

If you're arriving at the 180 degree point on your target airspeed, then your pitch action is fine. If you're not making it to the 180 degree point when you reach your target airspeed, then you're rolling out too fast. Your rollout needs to be timed so that it begins at the 90 degree point and ends at the 180 degree point, and needs to be timed to coincide with running out of airspeed at the top.

4. Stalls - I need to be proficient at doing power on/offstalls. When I perform them, my first reaction is "oh, break thestall" so forward I push and the nose drops below the horizon. Obviously, my CFI is not happy since he wants the nose lowered only tothe horizon. My only concern with that is when I tried it the twotimes, we went into secondary stalls. Not something I want to doon the check ride.

Your stalls should also be a sleeper maneuver. Remember that you shouldn't feel any floating in your seat or in your stomach. One degree of change in angle of attack is all that's required. Don't go throwing the airplane over. Just relax an ounce of pressure to break the stall, and let the airplane fly out of it. You should be able to conduct the stall and recovery with the nose on the horizon the whole time, if you wish.

5. Power Off 180* Accuracy Approaches - Okay, so I haven't donenot one with a CFI, but here's what I've been working on. Abeamthe 1000' marks on the runway (my point), I apply carb heat, close thethrottle, request the short approach, maintain altitude while trimmingfor best glide and then put it down. I'm not saying that it's theprettiest pattern in the world, but I can't find a PTS requirement fora "pattern". I've been told by a check airman that all I need todo is get it on the runway at or 200' beyond the aiming point whilemaintaining altitude initially to trim for best glide. So far,I've been doing this in my own little "I haven't been 'taught' theproper way" way. is this correct?

Are you putting it on the ground where you want it? Then that's the correct way.

6. System Knowldege - Okay, so I've heard differing opinions onthis. A few opinions are that I will have to diagram the systems(electrical, hydraulic, fuel, etc.) for the airplanes that I'll beusing (C152 and C172RG). Doing the fuel system is easy since theyare easy systems, but I'm having a hard time memorizing the diagram forthe electrical system and hydraulic system. I can tell you allabout them, but I can't seem to be able to draw them out. Myfeelings on this are: It's in the book, I know how it works, if Iwant to build one, I'll look it up. The other opinions I havegotten are "if you can explain it, that's all that matters". I'dlike to be as prepared as possible going in to stage 3 (All C172RGFlights) so I don't bone this stage 2 Oral (which from what Iunderstand will be tougher than the actual check ride).

It's in the book, and you do need to know it. You're talking about a dirt-simple elementary electrical system in the airplanes in question. Without question you should understand how it works. To draw it, simplify it in your mind. You don't need to be able to draw or explain a detailed electrical schematic. All you need to be able to do is show the relationship between the components in the system. Draw a square and label it battery. Draw a circle and label it alternator. Draw a long square and label it the main electrical bus. Connect them as appropriate, putting in the basic components.

Be able to answer simple questions; what will kick your alternator off line? Do you have overvoltage protection? How many electrical busses are they, and how are they divided up? What do you lose, if anything, if you lose your alternator? How long can you continue on battery power alone? What is your system voltage? What type battery do you have, and what are it's limitations? Can you use external power to start up, and what are the proceedures and limitations there? Can you hand-prop? Why or why not, and how? Know your system.

7. This is kind of a CFI check ride thing, but here goes. We were told (students) by the Examiner doing our CFI rides (when weget there) that if we don't use an actual checklist before landing(like...doing a flow, GUMPPSS, etc.) and stop once clear of the runwayto do a checklist, we will bust the checkride (he doesn't like hotplanes). Okay, no problem, but unless tower gives me instructionsto taxi to the ramp as/before I leave the runway, I always stop tocontact ground once clear. While I'm contacting ground I gothrough getting the lights, transponder, flaps, etc. I don'tnecessarily use a paper checklist, but I do hit all of theitems on the checklist (I have another flow for that). Is thereany reason to think that such a scenario will cause a bust?

Is failure to use a checklist worthy of a "bust?" Yes.

I have no idea what a "hotplane" is.

USE YOUR CHECKLIST. Your checklist is just that. A checklist. Not a do list. You can refer to it after you've executed your flows, after you've done what you need to do, but be sure you are visibly checking that printed checklist. That you can do it all in your head is admirable; now back it up with the checklist. That's what it's there for. Use it. Yes, the examiner can, and should pound you for failure to use the checklist. I have very little time right now, but I have some stories about what happens when you fail to use the checklist that might make you think twice about trying to go it alone.

8. Touch and Gos Complex - I don't like the idea of doing TnGs ina complex airplane. I've heard lots of stories of wellintentioned students/instructors reaching for flaps to bring them upand "oh sh*t that's the gear"ing it. I can't find a PTSrequirement for touch and goes for either the Commercial or CFI checkride. Any reason to think the examiner will bust me for wantingto be safe, clear the runway, do the flaps once clear and I have timeto THINK?

The examiner cannot fail you for making conservative decisions as you've described. However, you should be capable of doing the touch and go anyway. You're going to need to execute a go-around, and a touch and go isn't any different, other than the fact that your wheels are on the ground. The proceedure is the same, you're reaching for the same controls, and in a go-around your wheels might just touch the runway anyway...you're faced with the same dillema.

The examiner should not require you to do a touch and go landing, but may ask for it, and you should be prepared and capable to do it.

 

[minitour]

...I have no idea what a "hotplane" is...

it's "hot plane" (spaced out in case the spacing thing screws me again)*edit* and it did*

I guess he's had people in August do the checklist on five milefinaland then stop after turning off the runway with no AC and he getshotin the plane...thus he mentioned for us to not use the "checklist"butjust do it and move on with life...

Thanks for the advice av...much appreciated, I'll give it a shot today for those maneuvers..

-mini

 

[PropsForward]

it's "hot plane" (spaced out in case the spacing thing screws me again)*edit* and it did*

I guess he's had people in August do the checklist on five milefinaland then stop after turning off the runway with no AC and he getshotin the plane...thus he mentioned for us to not use the "checklist"butjust do it and move on with life...

Thanks for the advice av...much appreciated, I'll give it a shot today for those maneuvers..

-mini

The trick here is that your students will learn by example. If you do not use your checklist and are weak in the checklist dept. then your students will most likely suffer the same condition.

We don't want to pass along our bad habits to new students.

 

[Ralgha]

Avbug pretty much hit everything. I've got a tibit to add on the Lazy 8's.

Since you're doing them in the 172RG, it will probably be useful to know that the airplane will fly about half the maneuver for you, however to get it to work successfully, you MUST keep it coordinated. If the ball is not dead center, the airplane won't do it for you.

Here goes:

• Bank two degrees, then neutralize the ailerons.
• Sloooooooooooooooooooooooooowly start pitching up to reach 15 degrees at the 45 degree point of the turn.
• Upon reaching 45 degrees of turn, and 15 degrees of pitch up, freeze the yoke right where it's at (remember always keep the ball centered).
• The airplane will complete the next approximately 90 degrees of the turn for you (remember, keep the ball centered).
• On the last 45 degrees of turn, you will have to make small yoke inputs to make it work out, but you should be able to see what's necessary and do it.
• Repeat as necessary.

Now I've broken apart the initial bank and pitch, but with a little practice, the whole maneuver should occur smoothly and without pause. Don't fight the airplane, BE the airplane.

The suggested pitch and bank numbers are for use in the airplane that I have trained people in. Your airplane may require slightly different numbers. There may be 172RGs in existance that don't like doing any work for you and will refuse to follow the rules. I am not responsible for any bad habits or failed checkrides that arise from use of this technique.

 

[UGAflyer]

I remember when I was doing lazy 8's in the 172RG it kept wanting to bust the airspeed..i think..but anyway it worked better when I dropped the gear out. I didn't actually end up using the 172RG on the checkride so I don't know if this is an acceptable practice.

 

[minitour]

The suggested pitch and bank numbers arefor use in the airplane that I have trained people in. Your airplanemay require slightly different numbers. There may be 172RGs inexistance that don't like doing any work for you and will refuse tofollow the rules. I am not responsible for any bad habits or failedcheckrides that arise from use of this technique.

LMAO Love it...disclaimer on an internet web board...LMAO!!

-mini

 

[nosehair]

the airplane will fly about half the maneuver for you, however to get it to work successfully, you MUST keep it coordinated. If the ball is not dead center, the airplane won't do it for you.

(remember, keep the ball centered).

What Ralgha said: NOT keeping the ball centered is the most common error in the chandelle and lazy 8.

Coordination is the main objective of these maneuvers, and is of the least concern to most instructors/students.

Look at the objective of these maneuvers in the Airplane Flying Handbook.

I start these maneuvers with a general description: "Let's do some of these (making a couple of lazy 8's with my hand) while keeping the ball centered."
Keeping the ball centered is the main point of the maneuver. When the student can do some "wing-overs" while keeping the ball centered, then we work in the PTS parameters.

Believe me, if the student can do a reasonable picture of a lazy 8 with the ball centered, he will pass. If the ball is knocking around, it does not matter about the other parameters, the examiner will find an excuse to fail him.

For some reason, they just don't like to use "lack of coordination" as an excuse to bust, but in fact, that is a primary reason. They find something more concrete, like airspeed, altitude, etc., but the real reason is poor coordination.

 

[PHX767]

Don't change good habits for an examiner

Good habits as you have described (taxi clear, call ground, then checklist) will last a career. Don't go changin' (sorry Billy Joel) for the local examiner's quirks.

Get a real examiner or do your check ride in the cool months.

BTW, be sure you look at the flight training handbook to find out how to do the manuever and the PTS to see the standards for it. That's the grading criteria to judge your performance.