Comair/ASA rumor....

[Palerider957]

OK, it's a rumor. I'm just curious if anyone else had heard it.

Rumor is that Comair will take control of operations in ATL. Specifically, DCI will take control officially, but it will be staffed with lower level Comair management.

It was also rumored that Comair will up it's flights from 60 a day into Atlanta, to over 100.

Has anyone else heard this?

 

[shamrock]

If the lower level Comair management is out on the ramp tossing bags and parking airplanes then it might help. Other than that, not sure what difference it will make.

No disrespect to my Comair brothers and sisters, but it's getting just a little disconcerting to at times be the only ASA plane on the ramp surrounded by 5 Comair RJs.

Can we come to CVG? Please!?!

 

[Palerider957]

Shamrock:

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm happy to tip my hat and hold a door for Comair crews. But, I must admit It's a little disconcerting to be getting ready for push, only to be surrounded by a sea of Comair planes.

It seems like ASA/Comair are almost merging. Actually, this might be a good thing as management would have to equalize our contracts.

I feel a close kinship with Comair, but if CHQ starts to fill our ramp--I'll be ready for a fight.

 

[ACE]

I've heard the rumor in cvg as well, but as you know until it happens I don't believe it. I would rather have ASA working with us in CVG than ACA. As far as I'm concerned ASA and Comair are the same and need to merge. It would be the best thing for both pilot groups. We are not doing as much DFW flying as we were. It looks to me, DCI is shifting Comair to ATL and ASA to DFW. That is just my observation. Again, who knows until it happens. Are you guys at ASA picking up a lot more DFW flying?

 

[Palerider957]

Yes, we have increased our DFW flying substantially. Jeez, I hope they don't ship my as.s out to DFW, that is the LAST place I want to be.

As for merging, I doubt DCI would ever allow that--we would be WAY too powerful. I don't think they'll even allow our contracts to be negotiated at the same time. It's a good thought though. I would much rather be hubbed out of CVG then ATL, a lot closer to home for me.

It's interesting that you heard the same rumor in CVG.

Perhaps you Comair boys could whip some fire into our ramp.

 

[Skull-One]

Shamrock:

I feel a close kinship with Comair, but if CHQ starts to fill our ramp--I'll be ready for a fight.

How nice...

 

[Palerider957]

Skull:

Nothing personal, man. I've given many CHQ guys the jumpseat, and I'm happy to do it. I don't see CHQ pilots as the problem. COMAIR/ASA have a close relationship (both WO's) and similar goals, as a contractor CHQ is a competitor.

I DON't want to rehash all of the contract differences, or start a bitc.h session...this board has been down that road too many times.

If your ramp were sudenly swamped with ASA/Comair planes, it would get your attention pretty fast.

If/when you guys are bought by Delta, you'll be welcomed into the dysfunctional Delta family

 

[Palerider957]

Skull:

Incidentally, I've been off of the boards for a few weeks, so I'm not up to date. The last I heard CHQ was holding the line against managment.

I wish you guys the best.

 

[Skull-One]

*WHEW*

Glad to hear we're not the "New Mesa Airlines" in the eyes of ASA.

FWIW, under the IPO we were supposed to finish last year DAL was to own something like 35% of our company's stock. I think DAL has plans to own us before it is all over....

 

[bailout]

palerider : I don't know whats worse,.. You helping spread ridiculus rumors, or you believing them.

just picking on ya,..

 

[sleepy]

Even if Comair management took over all ATL ramp operations, it wouldn't make a big difference. They would still be hiring from the same pool of highly qualified applicants that ASA has to chose from. What are they going to do, import workers from CVG? They might buy some more ground equipment, that's about it.

Most of the ASA outstations have pretty good personel, just like Conair. The problem is an ATL thing.

Yes, I here that Conair will have 100 flights out of ATL next month. I'll believe it when I see it. And you Conair pilots enjoy your growth in our hub while you can. In a few years you will get the same thing in return from Fred. That is the way it will always be at DCI.

 

[General Lee]

Skull-one,

How is Delta going to buy you guys? With what money? Oh yeah, the money they would have gotten from us if we had caved in. Not gonna happen. You don't want to be owned by Delta---just ask the Comair and ASA guys. Whipsaw heaven. Well, I guess you're a part of that already.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[P38JLightning]

yuck!

OK there's a scary thought!

Delta owns Chautauqua and gets to pay them their same fee for departure (or "cost plus", etc.) MINUS that guaranteed profit margin, thus making them EVEN MORE profitable compared to us evil, overpaid Comair and ASA pilots.

I hope you're right general and that never happens.

 

[Treme]

CHQ

Chautauqua is owned by Wexford Management.

Wexford also owns a little company called the Solitaire Leasing Group in Europe. Solitaire leases hundreds of ERJs and needs someplace to put them at cost. Wexford also has (and/or had) significant financial interest in Midway, National Airlines, Shuttle America, and, of course Republic.

We have to remember that Chautauqua isnt a little podunk Jamestown New York airline anymore. They are a part of a very very large, very wealthy airline management group.

The same way that Delta and DCI endeavour to build a "portfolio" of carriers to serve Delta -- so too does Wexford. They have a portfolio of major airline partners which insulates Chautauqua from financial damage resulting from the termination of any one codeshare.

They currently codeshare with US Airways, American, America-West (though that relationship either just ended or is soon to end), and Delta. They are able to very rapidly expand with very little expense or lead time. Due to Wexford's Solitaire subsidiary they have a virtually untapped well of airplanes which can be delivered on a moments notice if necessary.

So the question becomes....

What generates more $$$ for Delta?

With Comair/ASA Delta pays for general offices, training, maintenance, stores, aircraft leases, facilities, etc... -- Yields on Comair/ASA flights must be such so as to allow Delta to pay these costs along with Com/ASA payroll ... and then make a profit.

Chautauqua, on the other hand, offers Delta a fee per departure. A very simple "wet lease" type arrangement in which Delta pays Chautauqua a fee to fly the plane.... lets just say $1000 to keep the numbers simple. That is all the revenue Chautauqua ever sees on a flight...and all they have to do is complete it. They have a steady revenue stream that allows them to accurately manage their costs and project profits.

At the same time, Delta enjoys a clean, new, regional-jet product at low cost. Furthermore Delta collects the revenue from seats sold on Chautauqua flights -- so all revenue collected from a Chautauqua flight (minus their $1000 "fee") is profit. They dont need to be burdened with worrying about fuel prices, contract training, maintenance problems -- that is CHQ's problem.

All DCI has to do is determine what makes more money -- the revenue minus the fee from CHQ... or revenue minus costs at Com/ASA. 9 times out of 10, CHQ will win.

Make no mistake, Chautauqua (the company, not the pilots) is the single greatest threat to the continued existance of wholly-owned subsidiaries. They are a very lean, aggressive, forward thinking company that is able to rapidly take advantage of opportunities.

They, along with Mesa, ACA, and other non-wholly owned entities who codeshare with more than one partner are your most dangerous competitor -- because they are (and will continue to) competing for the very flying that you're doing today.

Just my opinion.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Treme-

You forgot to add the pilot group of CHQ to your list. If I recall, Wexford is threatening them too!

I guess Comair and ASA aren't the only ones in danger of Wexford's "portfolio."

 

[Machdog1]

Ace whats your beef with ACA?

 

[Machdog1]

Don't worry about ACA we are to expensive for Delta and United in this cheap as#$s market!! I would worry about MESA and chic whaa though!

 

[Skull-One]

"Chic whaaa." Is that the most brilliant, original, creative f*cking thing you could come up with?

Good grief.

Okay, let's just get this over with so these lame as$es don't waste any more of our time. Let's just come up with every witty (a.k.a. *LAME*) variation of Chautauqua we can so we can get it off our chests once and for all.

Chack Whaa
Check Whaa?
Chock Whaa
Chuck Whaaa
Choke Whaa
Chyke Whaa

Chat Taco
Chet Taco
Chit Taco
Chot Taco
Chut Taco
Chyt Taco

Chiquita
Chiquata
Chiqwayta
ChunkWacko
WackChunko

Checken Taco
Chicken Taco
Choken Taco

Chee waaa
Waaa Chee
F*ckTaco
Cat Taco
Fat Taco
Chock Wacko

Chung Tico
Chang Wango
Big Wango
Chang Chingo
Taq Wacko

Toy Taco
Chew Taco
ChewTaca

Chunk Monkey
Monkey Chaco
Choco Taco
Taco Wanko

Sh i t Taco
Taco Sh i t
Sheet Toca
Sheet Taco

Shee-it Taco
Chango Wango
Wing Chaco

CHEET TAKA
Cheet Toka
Cheet Chucka
Sheet Shucka
Sheet Shocko

CHUNG TAKO SAUCE

Did I forget any, MachDog, you lame as$?

 

[NDPILOT]

nothin good on t.v.?

 

[tarp]

And ACA has all those cherry routes that ASA/Comair want back:

CVG-DAY
CVG-CMH
CVG-CLE
CVG-TOL
CVG-IND
CVG-EVA
CVG-BNA
CVG-TRI

Short trips even in a Dork-Jet and you get to do 8 legs a day! Oh but the good news is you only have to carry two Jepp Low-Enroutes for your whole day. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I think DAL has plans to own us before it is all over....

Not in the plans at Delta, or CHQ, Republic Airlines or Wexford LLC. For starters CHQ is currently the sucking sound at the bottom of our cost structure. You have MCO because you contracted it for less than ASA, or Comair, could operate the service. ASA and Comair management both decided the margins were too thin and passed on the flying.

Not that we hold the pilots personally responsible, you guys are trying to improve your lot in life and we support your effort to get to a living wage and benefit package. Unfortunately as long as your managers continue to underbid flying and are willing to contract for a 4 to 5% margin (if everything goes perfect, which it seldom does) then we have to negotiate against an unrealistically low replacement cost.

Yes, you guys are the Mesa of your industry. We would like to see you become the Delta of the regional pilots. Get a good contract and help us out, please!

Treme wrote a really good post. The only part of his analysis that he left out was that CHQ is not a real, sustainable, operation as is. For example their pilot cost structure will go up ( a bunch with the US Air Mainline guys coming over for Republic ) and working out of 1/2 the fourth floor of the IND airport administration building is not sufficient infastructure support to manage a real airline. Eventually your costs will catch up with Comair's, but with margins so thin, something will have to give and ultimately it will result in an unprofitable quagmire. CHQ runs on some really thin ice and it is a tremendous credit to the crews that your airline turns in the performance numbers it does. A lot has to do with newer equipment and motivated employees. Over the longer haul, both the equipment and the employees age.

We certainly saw this at ASA. When Delta bought us they were surprised and had to spend millions to take us from a 135 type operation that had 121 service to the point where we could simulate a "real airline." None the less, the transition still is not complete, which is the subject of this thread.

ATL is the world's busiest airport and our ramp rivals an aircraft carrier for utilization of space. It is a challenging situation and our rampers move a heck of a lot of flights. The Company has obviously set a price point on service. Yes, we could do it the way Delta does, but no it would not be profitable. A CVG type operation is just not economically realistic, does not matter who is running the show, service costs money.

 

[Palerider957]

Squiggly line:

I think you hit it on the head. Delta/ASA want the performance numbers eminating from ATL to improve, but the are at a loss. They have added (some) new equipment, and the departure coordinators, which has been a help. The REAL (that is, not FLICA) on time numbers haven't really budged. Perhaps they think the Comair group can bring in some new ideas, I think they will hit the same walls ASA has.

I reacall somewhere that the MCO flying was never really profitable for DAL. They kept the routes to maintain market share.

As for CHQ, I'd like to see them get a respectable contract (I'd like to see us get one as well).

Skull one--relax brother, relax......nothing on these boards is worth getting that worked up over.

 

[Machdog1]

Thanks for the post chic whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Good luck over there with your contract! Praying for ya brother!!
Sincerely,
Lame A@##$ss

 

[DoinTime]

Wexford also owns a little company called the Solitaire Leasing Group in Europe. Solitaire leases hundreds of ERJs and needs someplace to put them at cost. Wexford also has (and/or had) significant financial interest in Midway, National Airlines, Shuttle America, and, of course Republic.

Solitaire = a game played by one person

Does this mean that Chitaqua is really just playing with themselves?


b.t.w: didn't National Airlines go tits up last year?

 

[FLB717]

My quess is a simple one. Put CMR on shared routes with ASA and when/if ASA shuts down in two or three years over a little contract dispute CMR must fly the routes under the RLA while ASA walks in square circles. that is basicly what happened the CMR my DAL. Not fair in the brotherhodd issue but one that is difficult to beat in court. In other words they will have to fly the routes. But only the flight numbers flown prior to any shut down. My .5 cents dont spend it in any one place.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Put CMR on shared routes with ASA and when/if ASA shuts down in two or three years over a little contract dispute CMR must fly the routes under the RLA while ASA walks in square circles.

That is exactly the plan and it is working well. CHQ provides an additional buffer by allowing Delta to "acquire" additional RJ's without the capital expense.

Just keep your stock price headed up so I can eat while walking in ATL. I bought at $2.40 a share.

Still wish we had become "Value Prop" instead of Delta Connection. What is the status of the Air Wisconsin RJ flying, and why do they always leave their landing lights on while waiting for a gate on ramps 3 & 4?

 

[FLB717]

That was a great price to buy, My Grandfather did the same with 500+ shares. He says it the only stock that has done well in over a year. Wish I had the cash at the time to buy, oh well a strike and then first year pay with debt does slow things a little As far as the landing light at AW couldnt tell ya.

The one thing to remember is that is you park 120 RJs/ATRs/E120s they are still parked and DFW would be a slow place with ATL right behind them..close (yes I know everone else would still fly) and that WILL cost a LOT of money. I hope and think that the positioning of RJs from CMR is just posturing and not a prelude to a real shutdown. Leo and Co. lost a great deal of money last time and it would be even worse impact on the whole company now. Stand tall and feel good..the economy sucks but your position does not.

 

[Skull-One]

Not in the plans at Delta, or CHQ, Republic Airlines or Wexford LLC. For starters CHQ is currently the sucking sound at the bottom of our cost structure. You have MCO because you contracted it for less than ASA, or Comair, could operate the service. ASA and Comair management both decided the margins were too thin and passed on the flying.

Let me rephrase....

"I think Delta *planned* to own us." Perhaps since the economy tanked that has changed. However, IIRC, our "RJET" IPO was going to result in about 30-35% ownership by Delta (they were to receive a lot of our stock). I could be wrong....memory....failing....ugh....

Some conspiracy theorists are saying that's why our Management team is in such an uproar to get Republic going and have jets at Shuttle America. That way they'll have something to play with when CHQ gets sold.

I dunno.

As for underbidding the MCO operation....just remember that 99% of that is due to the cost of our airplane. I've already run the numbers on it and crew costs vs. ASA are under $3M a year. (I think it was $1.2M/year.) That's not enough to justify us getting the MCO operation!

 

[Skull-One]

Here's part of an analysis in which we were told CHQ beat out ASA and Comair because our F/Os make 34% less than ASA/CMR....

______________

"34% of nothing is still nothing.


Worst case scenario (350 F/Os on 2nd Year Pay) = $3.78 Million per year. That's the whopping difference. Considering our company is going to make $21 Million.............and that our F/Os on 1st and 2nd year pay number only....256.

Simplified calculation (the difference between first and second year pay isn't enough to matter in this case).


75 Hours/Month * 12 = $900 per pilot per month
$900 X 12 = $10,800 per year per pilot
$10,800 per year * 256 pilots = $2,764,800 saved per year.


The bonuses paid out to our Management could probably take up a large chunk of that. Saving gas probably takes up more.

Now consider that our airplanes cost $7 million *APIECE* less and this $2.74M doesn't seem like much, does it? Also, that number will drop every single week as more pilots reach third year pay once our growth slows. In time it will be somewhere around $200,000/year. Big woop.

We didn't get our MCO flying based on $2.76M/year.

Indeed, we only have fewer than 60 F/Os in MCO right now.

60 F/Os * 75 Hours/Month * 12 Months * $12/Hour = $648,000

That's the difference. $648,000 !

We didn't get this d a m n e d contract for that!"

 

[DoinTime]

Pay scales are only part of a contractual compensation package. I don't know if its accurate but I would venture that ASA and definitely CMR have a significantly higher pay PACKAGE than CHQ. Something interesting to note as well is that this is not just about pilot pay. Somehow pilots seem to think that the whole world revolves around them. Look at the pay rates of all the other employees groups that work at CHQ and compare them to the rest of the industry. I bet you are going to find that your flight attendants make less, your rampers make less, your office staff makes less, your mechanics make less, your dispatchers make less, ect..... I would also venture that on average employees at ASA and CMR have more years of service in than employees at CHQ.

Take all of these factors into account and that maybe CHQ is willing to work a contract that doesn't provide a profit margin that other carriers would find acceptable and then you can come up with a number that makes more sense.