Coex friend said $crewed by Jetblue rates

[General Lee]

A frined of mine (yes, I have one) at COEX called me today and said the new 100 seat pay rates at Jetblue (not voted on by the Jetblue pilots) have "sunk" the COEX negotiations. He was very mad. I know the Jetblue guys would not want those rates--but since they don't have a union over there--the rates were "imposed" on them for the future Emb-190s. That $ucks.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bjet Driver]

General,

Not sure why those rates would hurt the negotiations. We only fly 50 seaters and can't seem to even reach Comair's current pay rates during talks thus far.

 

[General Lee]

My buddy there said it would not help your cause. You can't go for Comair + when Jetblue is Comair - .


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[stall022]

Jetblue just released their 190 payrates.

1st year capt $70.71 for first 70 hours/ $106.57 over 70
2nd year $72.32
1st year F/O $37.10 for the first 70
2nd year $39.95
12th yr Captain $88.72 70 Hours / $133.08 OT
FO $52.86 70 Hours / $79.29 OT

 

[MJG]

JB's rates haven't sunk anything. Any one of my fellow pilots here at XJet that are in that mindset need to just relax.

First off the rates presented to the JB folks are tentative at this point. Yes they don't really have a choice about it but there may well be a significant backlash from the pilots over there and hints of a union may do wonders for those rates before they go into effect. Did anyone see the rates that JetBlue offered for the Airbus when they started out? Not exactly stellar back then when JB was a start up. But since then their rates have started to come in line. All they're doing is claiming that they're still a startup carrier and therefore must offer low rates as a condition of starting service with the 190. Same will happen with the 190 rates eventually, they'll go up. I'd be willing to bet that the rates posted today aren't the ones that show up on the first paycheck for an EMB-190 pilot at JB. We'll see.

It will be hard for the company or the NMB to justify using a payscale for comparison that hasn't even gone into effect yet at a non-union, start up carrier. That's like us saying we want XX amount per hour because we know that sometime in the future that the rates will be higher at all of our competitors therefore we're just "planning ahead".

Besides JB has the 150% over guarentee pay. So if you average out their monthy hours, which I'm guessing the average is somewhat above 70 per pilot, the payrate is acutally higher than it looks.

Nobody get their panties in a wad. Instead save your money and volunteer as much of your time and resources as you can to help the cause.

 

[Heavy Set]

Anything above Jet Blue E190 rates viewed as not COMPETITIVE

BENCHMARK - that's the term everyone needs to consider at this point.

The new E190 rates at JetBlue will be the benchmark against which ALL regional pilots wage rates will be compared. The concern is that you won't find rates that will exceed the E190 rates because they won't be viewed as "competitive." Essentially, Jet Blue has now put a CAP on your future earning potential - get it? Regional pilot wages will be measured against the new LCC wage rates.

You can thank Jet Blue for limiting any regional wage growth in the future - that includes both 50 and 70 seaters. Your managements will say, "Why should we pay you $x to fly a 50 seater if that exceeds what Jet Blue pays its 100-seater pilots?" Don't expect 50-seat RJ pay to remain at high levels given the new "playing field." Seriously, this is bad news for all pilots - both mainline and regional pilots because this new BENCHMARK sets the salary bar even lower for everyone. And what can the Jet Blue pilots do to disagree with or act against it? Nada. Thanks Jet Blue for lowering the salary bar for everyone!

 

[lrn2fly]

Mmm, did the JETBLUE coolaid just get sour?

 

[Flash 7]

Everyone just needs to relax.

I don't think we should blame Jblue for anything. Did they set the pay for A320 pay when they started at 80K per year. Why didn't Spirit set the mad dog rates. I would also bet that those rates will be significantly higher in the future.

 

[General Lee]

Flash7,


I am not happy about my own current situation over here at Delta, but these Jetblue rates really will affect more people than you think. It isn't the fault of the Jetblue pilots currently flying for them--but rather the Jetblue management. They set the bar LOW because they could. The current Jetblue pilots will all stay on the Airbus most likely, and eventual newhires will have to deal with the lower pay. The MDA pay rates were not viewed as realistic because of the financial shape of USAir. But, Jetblue is doing well---and that is why the low rates at a financially sound airline is troublesome. The 100 seat market is just coming into play now because airlines are figuring out how many seats it takes to fill to still squeeze a profit--and 50 and maybe even 70 seats may not be enough in the future on contested routes. Jetblue has designated the 100 seater a mainline aircraft---and all of the regionals will look at these rates and try to negotiate DOWN from them--since a lot of airlines are NOT as profitable as Jetblue. It is not good news for anyone who might be flying future 100 seaters, or anything smaller.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MJG]

Not having a union on property: one million dollars

Trusting your company CEO to do the right thing: ten million dollars

Setting the new low when it come to pilot compensation: PRICELESS !

So how will JB justify paying it's 100 seater pilots more than 100 dollars/hour less than the top legacy carrier for similar equipment??

I'll take it one step further. I just averaged the 2nd year captain pay for the "legacy" carriers using their smallest equipment. The average pay for an aircraft in this category that averages about 110 seats is $123/hour for 2nd year Captain.

For the LCC's I averaged their second year Captain pay for their smallest equipment. Out of 14 carriers from www.airlinepilotpay.com the average is $112/hour.

So if I'm Joe Schmoe arbitrator and I'm asked to make a decision regarding pay rates for a 100 seat aircraft the easy solution would be to take the average pay of all the competitors and use that figure.

JetBlue has just put themselves on the extreme. Ask yourself, do you really want to go work for a carrier like JetBlue which has now placed itself way outside of the average. Out of the 14 LCC's, more than half will pay better than JB for similar equipment. Why the hell would anyone ever want to go there now??

So when our CEO comes to us and says, "sorry guys but JetBlue is forcing us to lower our compensation proposal", I will say the same thing to him that he said to our entire pilot group just recently. That is you have everyone else over here in this general range of rates. Then you have JB way, way over here not even on the same page. We can't be going way out their where JetBlue is, just won't do it.

General Lee, I guess this now makes JetBlue the Anti-Delta.

 

[Flash 7]

GL,

You could try to make the aurgument that these rates will change all payscales.

DL mgt could say well why should we pay you guy's much more for a 737-200 or even a MD 80. those planes really don't hold that many more seats. look at Air tran and what they make on their 100 seater or Frontier. not likely these company's are profitable.

In fact Chautauquas 99 seat pay rates at the end of their new contract are actually higher than JBlues and they just signed there contract recently.


My prediction is that 50 to 99 seat pay will be pretty close across the board at most regionals. and that is unfortunate. But that started with Mesa and skywest.

I can tell you one thing. Unless DAL goes ch11 and also Bankrupts ASA/Comair their will be no pay cuts at the wholly owned DCI.

 

[350DRIVER]

General,

I am a tad disappointed in your post, JB has not "sunk" anything nor will they have any bearing on the current ExpressJet situation. This pilot group (EJ) will only get what they negotiate, regardless of what JB, Mesa, Chitaco, etc, is currently getting per their contract. ExpressJet does not even fly anything close to the 190's so this is a pretty bad comparison and quite frankly it is a cop out. This pilot group seems (or appears) to be very united and I cannot see them caving into something that is below "average", time shall tell though...


As far as the JB group, they are stuck..

3 5 0

 

[General Lee]

Flash7,

I doubt the Jetblue 100 seater rates will affect DL 777 rates----UAL and AA 777 rates will affect DL 777 rates. They are coming down--and we know it. The same goes for the other mainline aircraft. But, the 100 seat Jetblue rates will affect possible future DL 100 seat rates, and anything below it. We expect a 30% or so offered pay cut from managment--along with other cuts for things like per diem, vacation pay, training pay, etc.... Dalpa will come back with a counter that is probably close, but includes 100 seat rates and maybe other new rates. That is how it would work. If we stay out of Chap 11 (which is what Malone and Grinstein want to do)--then Comair and ASA will get sqeezed in other ways--like expansion and evenutal contract negotiations. I am not happy or giddy about any of this---this is just what I see possibly happening. I don't see any down sizing --since the passengers are back (we had a 16% increase in passengers as a whole compared to last year at this time)--yet our costs are out of whack. Getting those under control and getting new financing will help the problem.


350driver,

I said in my post that my buddy at Coex told me that he thought the negotiations were "sunk." I don't know much about them except I have heard about the picketing during the Superbowl, I have read the ALPA updates and I have seen the ALPA ads in the USAToday. I wish you luck.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Truckdriver]

I think we can all thank SKYW for the low pay rates at JBLU. On Paper SKYW will fly a 190 for the same price they will fly a 50 seat RJ. I think a 5 year CA on a 99 seat jet at SKYW would get paid like $64/hr!!! JBLU had no choice because SKYW lowered the benchmark when they put those pay rates on paper. When SKYW rolls an A-320 on property, a 5th year CA will get about $98/hr. It looks like the two premeir non-union carriers are doing a great job of helping us all out. Hopefully the 190 pay at JBLU will come up like it did with the 320's. However, I don't see the SKYW pay moving much because most guys there think that those rates are a good deal "in this environment". They don't really understand the cost plus sham do they.

 

[nimtz]

I think we can all thank SKYW for the low pay rates at JBLU. On Paper SKYW will fly a 190 for the same price they will fly a 50 seat RJ. I think a 5 year CA on a 99 seat jet at SKYW would get paid like $64/hr!!! JBLU had no choice because SKYW lowered the benchmark when they put those pay rates on paper. When SKYW rolls an A-320 on property, a 5th year CA will get about $98/hr. It looks like the two premeir non-union carriers are doing a great job of helping us all out. Hopefully the 190 pay at JBLU will come up like it did with the 320's. However, I don't see the SKYW pay moving much because most guys there think that those rates are a good deal "in this environment". They don't really understand the cost plus sham do they.

But dude they have a superior corporate culture at Skywest! If management says they need it then they must be telling the truth. I cannot believe the joke ALL OF US have made out of this new generation of 70-110 seaters. We have let management get away with the line that 'since these airplanes are made in Brazil or Canada you guys shouldn't expect more pay.' There are going to be alot of these airplanes in the next ten years and we will all be stuck earning a fraction of what those flying DC-9's made/make. And so goes the career earning down the toliet. Jetblue has only joined on as part of the problem. No one is part of the solution. Disgusting!

 

[Ponchus pilot]

With 85 hours the pay comes out to be $77/hr for 1st year and $96/hr for 12 year capt.

 

[Flash 7]

With all the latest agreements for same pay for 50-99 seats. Expjet should use Jblue rates and then add 5 years for a 18 year scale, which is also the standard in most regional contracts.


Hold your line guys!!!!!

 

[bayoubandit]

I think we can all thank SKYW for the low pay rates at JBLU. On Paper SKYW will fly a 190 for the same price they will fly a 50 seat RJ. I think a 5 year CA on a 99 seat jet at SKYW would get paid like $64/hr!!! JBLU had no choice because SKYW lowered the benchmark when they put those pay rates on paper. When SKYW rolls an A-320 on property, a 5th year CA will get about $98/hr. It looks like the two premeir non-union carriers are doing a great job of helping us all out. Hopefully the 190 pay at JBLU will come up like it did with the 320's. However, I don't see the SKYW pay moving much because most guys there think that those rates are a good deal "in this environment". They don't really understand the cost plus sham do they.

I've been waiting for someone to say this. I thought the same thing. Secretly, the rumor was that they accept those pay rates because Mr CEO was trying to ilk a deal with his JB buddy to do smaller aircraft flying for JB. Neeleman was wise and decided that he wanted to keep it in house. SKW just layed the pavement for JB to follow with the payrates. The closely mirror what SKW had agreed to. Hmm....

 

[reno]

I think we can all thank SKYW for the low pay rates at JBLU. On Paper SKYW will fly a 190 for the same price they will fly a 50 seat RJ. I think a 5 year CA on a 99 seat jet at SKYW would get paid like $64/hr!!! JBLU had no choice because SKYW lowered the benchmark when they put those pay rates on paper. When SKYW rolls an A-320 on property, a 5th year CA will get about $98/hr. It looks like the two premeir non-union carriers are doing a great job of helping us all out. Hopefully the 190 pay at JBLU will come up like it did with the 320's. However, I don't see the SKYW pay moving much because most guys there think that those rates are a good deal "in this environment". They don't really understand the cost plus sham do they.

Once again I say remember that the SkyWest pay rate was for 18 months only and for aircraft that were not on property yet. That 18 month contract expires this year. We could have agreed to fly 777's for $20.00 and it would have had the same impact. When the new contract is inked I'd agree with the "Bringing down the house" mentality, but until then - 18 month rates on aircraft that don't exist do not move the bar.

 

[surplus1]

BENCHMARK - that's the term everyone needs to consider at this point.

The new E190 rates at JetBlue will be the benchmark against which ALL regional pilots wage rates will be compared. The concern is that you won't find rates that will exceed the E190 rates because they won't be viewed as "competitive." Essentially, Jet Blue has now put a CAP on your future earning potential - get it? Regional pilot wages will be measured against the new LCC wage rates.

You can thank Jet Blue for limiting any regional wage growth in the future - that includes both 50 and 70 seaters. Your managements will say, "Why should we pay you $x to fly a 50 seater if that exceeds what Jet Blue pays its 100-seater pilots?" Don't expect 50-seat RJ pay to remain at high levels given the new "playing field." Seriously, this is bad news for all pilots - both mainline and regional pilots because this new BENCHMARK sets the salary bar even lower for everyone. And what can the Jet Blue pilots do to disagree with or act against it? Nada. Thanks Jet Blue for lowering the salary bar for everyone!

I don't disagree with your basic concept but your focus on the impact of this JBlue decision is by no means limited to regional carriers.

The new "benchmark" will affect the majors as much or maybe more. NW pilots are trying to get their company to place 70-seat RJ's at the mainline. They will now have to do better than JBlue. Delta pilots are hoping for a new 100-seat airplane. They will now have to compete with JBlue. All of the "mainline" aircraft at or near the 100-seat range, e.g., the small 737s and the DC-9s, will now have to compete with JBlue compensation.

Regionals like Horizon, Comair, ASA, ARW, CHQ, MSA, all operating 70-seat RJs will have to compete with USAirways, which now flys or will fly the EMB-170/175 with 76 seats for $58 and both their 70-seat and 50-seat rates (as you point out) will come under intense pressure.

In short, we are all going to wind up, major and minor, paying the piper for this decision by JBlue management.

Granted these rates will eventually increase, but trying to inflate them with "overtime" as I've seen in some threads, just doesn't cut it. Even when they do increase, they will still be scraping the bottom of everyone's barrel.

At Comair, which is not the highest 70-seat rate, is now in real trouble. Given there is no longevity to speak of a JBlue, our 70-seat rate has been undercut by anywhere from $16 to $41 per hour. The USAirways 70-seat rate, also with no longevity, undercuts our 70-seat rate (based on the seniority of our captains) by at least $30 hr and as much as $55 hr.

USAirways ALPA unit and JBlue's management have both fired a shot that will be heard throughout the industry. I can't blame the JBlue pilots who have no voice, but I do blame the U pilots and ALPA. Giving up their longevity to undercut other ALPA carriers by such a wide margin is inexcuseable. There is also little doubt that the AAA low-ball rate for the EMB-170 was a major influence on the JBlue decision.

If this doesn't generate a union movement at JBlue then they deserve whatever they are given. Given that JBlue started out in the A320 for $78 bucks and hour, I guess we should not be surprised. Its unfortunate that the rest of us will have to suffer as well.

We live in interesting times.