Sphincter Boy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 150
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
CHQ passes by 95%!
- Thread starter SizzleChest
- Start date
- Watchers 29
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Captain X
Who is John Galt?
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2002
- Posts
- 948
Pay rates -- 1/1/04 as determined from ALPA National Research Center
Well, since a CHQ 6 yr CA will make $63.19/hour to fly the same aircraft we fly at XJT for $59.82/hr..............is it still backwards?
The industry average (hourly) pay for a 50-seat jet is $61.10/hr. so CHQ has a pay rate that is higher than industry average....IOW, they aren't dragging anyone down.
Now what carriers (with 50 seat pay) have rates below that average? TSA, SkyWay, Shuttle America, Piedmont, Mesa, ExpressJet, and Allegheney.
Of the 4 ALPA Contracts that have maxed 50-seat pay or are amendable only 1 is below that average------->XJT.
Basically, what I'm getting at is all you XJT boys and girls on here who are spouting off about other pilots contracts and situations had best be ready to pony up 'cause we're about to have to fight the fight everyone else has. We better be ready to put our money where our mouth is; walk the walk, etc. It ain't gonna fall into our laps. It ain't gonna be any different for us.
Comair struck for 89 days. They have the highest hourly rate in the small jet fleets ($67.53/hr); almost 13% higher than ours. Imagine what we're gonna have to do to get what we expect, want, and deserve....................
Those of us at XJT need to quit worrying about other contracts and start worrying about our own.
Well, since a CHQ 6 yr CA will make $63.19/hour to fly the same aircraft we fly at XJT for $59.82/hr..............is it still backwards?
The industry average (hourly) pay for a 50-seat jet is $61.10/hr. so CHQ has a pay rate that is higher than industry average....IOW, they aren't dragging anyone down.
Now what carriers (with 50 seat pay) have rates below that average? TSA, SkyWay, Shuttle America, Piedmont, Mesa, ExpressJet, and Allegheney.
Of the 4 ALPA Contracts that have maxed 50-seat pay or are amendable only 1 is below that average------->XJT.
Basically, what I'm getting at is all you XJT boys and girls on here who are spouting off about other pilots contracts and situations had best be ready to pony up 'cause we're about to have to fight the fight everyone else has. We better be ready to put our money where our mouth is; walk the walk, etc. It ain't gonna fall into our laps. It ain't gonna be any different for us.
Comair struck for 89 days. They have the highest hourly rate in the small jet fleets ($67.53/hr); almost 13% higher than ours. Imagine what we're gonna have to do to get what we expect, want, and deserve....................
Those of us at XJT need to quit worrying about other contracts and start worrying about our own.
OldManPilot
Senior Member
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2003
- Posts
- 459
TOGA
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2002
- Posts
- 334
Continental Express = CoEx = ExpressJet = ExJet = XJT.
Captain X -
We're "spouting" about their contract because it's one thing the Jims will be referring to when deciding how much to offer us. Yes, it is backward, as our contract is seven years old. Granted, the rate you quoted is 'only' one year old but, with inflation, they've only done very slightly better than breaking even.
As for the post about profit per a/c: profit, RASM, CASM, etc. = not my problem, nor yours. All those numbers are dependent upon myriad factors, most of which are completely beyond our control. Do you realize that a typical airline (if there is such a thing) could double their pilot's pay and it would only add a few percentage points to their overall costs? The numbers you quoted might be a little high. Hopefully not.
Captain X -
We're "spouting" about their contract because it's one thing the Jims will be referring to when deciding how much to offer us. Yes, it is backward, as our contract is seven years old. Granted, the rate you quoted is 'only' one year old but, with inflation, they've only done very slightly better than breaking even.
As for the post about profit per a/c: profit, RASM, CASM, etc. = not my problem, nor yours. All those numbers are dependent upon myriad factors, most of which are completely beyond our control. Do you realize that a typical airline (if there is such a thing) could double their pilot's pay and it would only add a few percentage points to their overall costs? The numbers you quoted might be a little high. Hopefully not.
Captain X
Who is John Galt?
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2002
- Posts
- 948
TOGA said:
I am very aware of how an increase in pilot compensation rates increases the "cost" to the company. Unfortunately you are off in your assumption that they could "double" pay and it would only bump things up a "few" points. I would be curious to see where and how you come to that conclusion. It's not as simple as most of our brothers and sisters at XJT think.
You'll learn more soon.....trust me.
Also, I'm not sure what numbers you were refering to as "a little high" but all the numbers in my above post came directly from the ALPA National website Research Center. They were taken from all airlines that have 50-seat pay rates and it is the number for a 6-yr CA as of 1/1/04.
All that said....I'm not saying that we aren't "different" at XJT, but someone above said something about throwing stones in glass houses and I think we better go to the big game and win before we start talking about how we're gonna win the "National Championship."
TOGA
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2002
- Posts
- 334
Captain X -
My comment on "numbers being a little high" was in reference to someone else's post that basically stated that because XJTs profits per a/c were double CHQ's (not sure where they got their numbers), our pay numbers "had better" be double theirs. As for the rise in overall cost relative to pilot pay, please bear with my very generalized math. Pilots are typically (I know, not at XJT) about 10% of an airline's workforce. As for their proportion of the overall labor cost . . . I'm not sure, what do you think . . . 20%? Meanwhile, labor as a whole is . . . what, 40% of overall cost? So, if you double a 20% portion of a 40% portion of costs, how much have you increased overall costs? Really, I'm asking, not stating. I've had two (hey, I'm married with kids!) St Pauli's, there's no freakin way I can do that math right now. Anyone? Yes, I know, that's oversimplified . . . other work groups will want theirs, etc. Nonetheless, we could be paid WAY more, and it wouldn't break the bank . . . actual numbers aside, that was my point.
My comment on "numbers being a little high" was in reference to someone else's post that basically stated that because XJTs profits per a/c were double CHQ's (not sure where they got their numbers), our pay numbers "had better" be double theirs. As for the rise in overall cost relative to pilot pay, please bear with my very generalized math. Pilots are typically (I know, not at XJT) about 10% of an airline's workforce. As for their proportion of the overall labor cost . . . I'm not sure, what do you think . . . 20%? Meanwhile, labor as a whole is . . . what, 40% of overall cost? So, if you double a 20% portion of a 40% portion of costs, how much have you increased overall costs? Really, I'm asking, not stating. I've had two (hey, I'm married with kids!) St Pauli's, there's no freakin way I can do that math right now. Anyone? Yes, I know, that's oversimplified . . . other work groups will want theirs, etc. Nonetheless, we could be paid WAY more, and it wouldn't break the bank . . . actual numbers aside, that was my point.
Captain X
Who is John Galt?
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2002
- Posts
- 948
TOGA
I see what you mean and I agree with you that we "could" be paid much more than we currently are. The MAJOR point of my post is that we won't get it without a SERIOUS fight and even then I think people will be surprised (and some dissapointed, maybe) at where the roulette wheel actually stops.
Our pilots need to educate on the "facts" related to OUR airline b/c when you boil it right down to brass tacks, we can't compare ourselves to the highest paid International Wide-body Major, and we can't compare ourselves to the lowest paid 50-seat Jet operator (wouldn't want too either).........really all we can do is compare OUR proposals to OUR financials.
50-seat economics vary from carrier to carrier. And one carrier's labor cost breakdown (hourly rates, work rules, etc) can't be simply "plugged in" to anothers.
Long story short (too late) we have to look at OUR world, OUR economics, OUR proposals and then make the decision on where we should be. The over-generalizations and pay-rate comparisons really don't do much but create "false perceptions" of where things should be. Unfortunately, people hang their hats on those perceptions and then are averse to the "facts."
Again, like I said in the first paragraph of this tirade and in another post:
I see a lot of us at XJT running around like the #15 (ironically, in 50-seat jet pay we are #15 out of 19 with 50-seat pay rates published) team who's bragging about how this is the season that we're going to win the National Championship.
But from what I've seen in practice and how we handle the ball in the red-zone we've got our work cut out for us.
I think we should concentrate on improving OUR game and not everyone elses.
Later
BTW, just one clarification -- Contract '97 was actually ratified on Dec. 14, 1998. This December our contract will be 5 years old not 7.
I see what you mean and I agree with you that we "could" be paid much more than we currently are. The MAJOR point of my post is that we won't get it without a SERIOUS fight and even then I think people will be surprised (and some dissapointed, maybe) at where the roulette wheel actually stops.
Our pilots need to educate on the "facts" related to OUR airline b/c when you boil it right down to brass tacks, we can't compare ourselves to the highest paid International Wide-body Major, and we can't compare ourselves to the lowest paid 50-seat Jet operator (wouldn't want too either).........really all we can do is compare OUR proposals to OUR financials.
50-seat economics vary from carrier to carrier. And one carrier's labor cost breakdown (hourly rates, work rules, etc) can't be simply "plugged in" to anothers.
Long story short (too late) we have to look at OUR world, OUR economics, OUR proposals and then make the decision on where we should be. The over-generalizations and pay-rate comparisons really don't do much but create "false perceptions" of where things should be. Unfortunately, people hang their hats on those perceptions and then are averse to the "facts."
Again, like I said in the first paragraph of this tirade and in another post:
I see a lot of us at XJT running around like the #15 (ironically, in 50-seat jet pay we are #15 out of 19 with 50-seat pay rates published) team who's bragging about how this is the season that we're going to win the National Championship.
But from what I've seen in practice and how we handle the ball in the red-zone we've got our work cut out for us.
I think we should concentrate on improving OUR game and not everyone elses.
Later
BTW, just one clarification -- Contract '97 was actually ratified on Dec. 14, 1998. This December our contract will be 5 years old not 7.
Last edited:
DCitrus9
Son of a son of a sailor
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 273
TOGA, here's an easy way to think of pilot pay affecting the bottom line. If you're a CA of a 50 seat seat making 50/hour, they can double your pay and it only costs an extra $1/seat per hour flown. Pilot pay is usually less than $5 per pax. That's less than the TSA morons are charging for "security".
embraerjetpilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2003
- Posts
- 301
SHAMEFUL
BOTTOM LINE: This contract is disgraceful. All you did was pad your management's wallets. As long as pilots SETTLE for being paid "peanuts", that's all we're going to make. What do you think would happen if EVERY PILOT got on the same page and demanded the pay that we deserve? I'll tell you...WE WOULD GET IT! But, since we can't seem to do that, we'll continue to allow the companies to play us against each other. Keeping the fear of being replaced alive. But, what good is a flying job that pays less than a PizzaHut delivery driver? (Yes, I saw a W2 from last year...it's true) What a shame. All you guys that talk about how we CAN'T expect to be paid more than we are is EXACTLY what the problem is. I don't know how old you are or if this is your first job in the "real" world, but, WAKE UP! You can't tell me that you're "ok" with the fact that virtually everyone else in the working environment (even the slackers who have never seen the inside of a college classroom) is making more than we do to fly a jet full of passengers at 37,000 feet.
The fact that this is even an "argument" is sickening!
Oh, and BTW...
whoever this clown is...grow up "tough guy(boy)".
BOTTOM LINE: This contract is disgraceful. All you did was pad your management's wallets. As long as pilots SETTLE for being paid "peanuts", that's all we're going to make. What do you think would happen if EVERY PILOT got on the same page and demanded the pay that we deserve? I'll tell you...WE WOULD GET IT! But, since we can't seem to do that, we'll continue to allow the companies to play us against each other. Keeping the fear of being replaced alive. But, what good is a flying job that pays less than a PizzaHut delivery driver? (Yes, I saw a W2 from last year...it's true) What a shame. All you guys that talk about how we CAN'T expect to be paid more than we are is EXACTLY what the problem is. I don't know how old you are or if this is your first job in the "real" world, but, WAKE UP! You can't tell me that you're "ok" with the fact that virtually everyone else in the working environment (even the slackers who have never seen the inside of a college classroom) is making more than we do to fly a jet full of passengers at 37,000 feet.
The fact that this is even an "argument" is sickening!
Oh, and BTW...
Cracker said:
whoever this clown is...grow up "tough guy(boy)".
Ben Franklin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2003
- Posts
- 580
If I may speak
I approach the podium as a friend of all pilots, for I once dreamed of what flight may be like as a small boy growing up in Boston.
Alas,
We cannot judge our brothers at CHQ for their individual actions, lest we judge ourselves as individuals as placed in the same situation.
We are only armed with our knowledge, as we see it of a painful and tragic history within the airlines as we know it and yet we throw stones at each other when we should be building missiles to launch at our real collective enemy, airline management.
Working as a printer caused me much toil and I often gave the appearance of being industrious, but I had passions for other things besides my initial career of printer. Politics and inventing are among my favorite other careers.
Therefore, I plead with the masses:
Let us rise up and be counted as a whole. Let us not wait for our managements to make us whole.
Let us band together as a trade, much like the printers of my day, instead of harming each other with pointless phrases and words that can never change what has been done.
Let us not make a war between our individual marketing groups, but let us mend our issues peacefully and enjoy all of the benefits that our profession will allow.
CHQ pilots are not tories, and I have yet to hear of any COEX pilot dumping tea in the harbor. I have ne'er seen a SkyWest or American Eagle pilot engaged in these activities, either. There is still hope for pilots like you, as long as we come together as one powerful trade group and not try to go it alone.
JOIN OR DIE!
I approach the podium as a friend of all pilots, for I once dreamed of what flight may be like as a small boy growing up in Boston.
Alas,
We cannot judge our brothers at CHQ for their individual actions, lest we judge ourselves as individuals as placed in the same situation.
We are only armed with our knowledge, as we see it of a painful and tragic history within the airlines as we know it and yet we throw stones at each other when we should be building missiles to launch at our real collective enemy, airline management.
Working as a printer caused me much toil and I often gave the appearance of being industrious, but I had passions for other things besides my initial career of printer. Politics and inventing are among my favorite other careers.
Therefore, I plead with the masses:
Let us rise up and be counted as a whole. Let us not wait for our managements to make us whole.
Let us band together as a trade, much like the printers of my day, instead of harming each other with pointless phrases and words that can never change what has been done.
Let us not make a war between our individual marketing groups, but let us mend our issues peacefully and enjoy all of the benefits that our profession will allow.
CHQ pilots are not tories, and I have yet to hear of any COEX pilot dumping tea in the harbor. I have ne'er seen a SkyWest or American Eagle pilot engaged in these activities, either. There is still hope for pilots like you, as long as we come together as one powerful trade group and not try to go it alone.
JOIN OR DIE!
Get a life
Since my TV hasn't moved down here yet, I log onto this site for the first time since I got nothing else to do. I will never log on again. You all yellin and cryin about how CHQ shoulda stood up to managment, this and that-as if you yourself coulda done way better on the neg. table, my family is hurting cause of this-well how bout this tough guy/guys-instead of spending endless time typing slander on here like cybernerd-spend some quality time with the family and friends of yours-or do you have any friends?
We did the best we could here. period. Now shut up and get a life.
For the first and last time on here,
E-Man
"Either your brains or your signature will be on this paper. You decide" The Godfather
Go Sox!
Since my TV hasn't moved down here yet, I log onto this site for the first time since I got nothing else to do. I will never log on again. You all yellin and cryin about how CHQ shoulda stood up to managment, this and that-as if you yourself coulda done way better on the neg. table, my family is hurting cause of this-well how bout this tough guy/guys-instead of spending endless time typing slander on here like cybernerd-spend some quality time with the family and friends of yours-or do you have any friends?
We did the best we could here. period. Now shut up and get a life.
For the first and last time on here,
E-Man
"Either your brains or your signature will be on this paper. You decide" The Godfather
Go Sox!
Cracker
Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2003
- Posts
- 88
For starters, flyr and born2fly...I'm not going to continue with any type of childish personal attacks that you seem fond of. I was trying to push a little sarcastic humor onto an otherwise pointless and relentless thread.
As a FO with CHQ, married with 2 kids, I can honestly say that I live fairly comfortably on my "measly" pay. I guess that I can run a decent budget, but that's just me.
This whole thread and argument is about as trite and overplayed as it has ever been since deregulation. Do you all really think that this has been the first "race to the bottom" in the airline industry. What do you think pilot's were saying when the first low cost airline came onto the scene? What do you think the mainline pilot's were saying when you wholly owned "pukes" (as someone so eloquently put) started to do their routes instead of just being feeders?
This whole pilot bashing concept is only harming the regional industry, as Ben Franklin stated earlier. On the outside looking in it's easy to demean and verbally bash each other. We did what we at CHQ felt was needed at this time. You all will do what is necessary when it comes time for your own negotiations. If your company doesn't pull that whole "sister airline" bs and you can negotiate a TA with out giving up anything, that is absolutely great. Kudos to you all.
This whole "race to the bottom" is won and lost at the negotiating table and CHQ did what we had to do to at least stall the race for us. We don't expect you to understand, we just expect you to do your part when it comes time. If you can do it better...well that's where the leaders are born. Verbally destroying us isn't going to get you anywhere closer to your goal.
As a side note, I urge any CHQ pilot not to participate in this thread any longer if it keeps up this tailspin into a pointless, pissing contest of an argument. I'm embarrased to say that I got sucked in. All of us who read this thread, everyone, not just CHQ, are above this. Honestly, if this thread continues in it's current state, what does that say about our own professionalism?
Politely bowing out and shaking my head...
jeez people...later
As a FO with CHQ, married with 2 kids, I can honestly say that I live fairly comfortably on my "measly" pay. I guess that I can run a decent budget, but that's just me.
This whole thread and argument is about as trite and overplayed as it has ever been since deregulation. Do you all really think that this has been the first "race to the bottom" in the airline industry. What do you think pilot's were saying when the first low cost airline came onto the scene? What do you think the mainline pilot's were saying when you wholly owned "pukes" (as someone so eloquently put) started to do their routes instead of just being feeders?
This whole pilot bashing concept is only harming the regional industry, as Ben Franklin stated earlier. On the outside looking in it's easy to demean and verbally bash each other. We did what we at CHQ felt was needed at this time. You all will do what is necessary when it comes time for your own negotiations. If your company doesn't pull that whole "sister airline" bs and you can negotiate a TA with out giving up anything, that is absolutely great. Kudos to you all.
This whole "race to the bottom" is won and lost at the negotiating table and CHQ did what we had to do to at least stall the race for us. We don't expect you to understand, we just expect you to do your part when it comes time. If you can do it better...well that's where the leaders are born. Verbally destroying us isn't going to get you anywhere closer to your goal.
As a side note, I urge any CHQ pilot not to participate in this thread any longer if it keeps up this tailspin into a pointless, pissing contest of an argument. I'm embarrased to say that I got sucked in. All of us who read this thread, everyone, not just CHQ, are above this. Honestly, if this thread continues in it's current state, what does that say about our own professionalism?
Politely bowing out and shaking my head...
jeez people...later
Cracker said:
Continue? You were the one who told someone he'd better "hope he doesn't meet up with you in a hotel bar."
Cracker said:
I guess you can consider yourself lucky that your family is fond of "Ramen Noodles." You can't seriously sit there and honestly say that you're happy with your compensation. You can't be that ridiculous. C'mon, man...it's not rocket science.
Cracker said:
Wow, I didn't realize this thread has been running since 1978.
Cracker said:
Sit back and watch.
Man, you need a LOT of work.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
