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CHQ new Delta jets?
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Dave Benjamin
an over 40 victim of fate
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surplus1 said:
Surplus,
I gotta call you on that one. The UAL MEC did not find it to be a cakewalk negotiating J4J with us. Every one of their furloughees will start on the bottom of our list as an FO. When US Air approached us for J4J we voted it down by a landslide.
I maintain that your airline along with others did far more to damage this profession with PFT then what we did our last TA. The timing of your strike was darn near perfect, just like the UAL pilots slowdown of 2000 that resulted in their short lived great paying contract. Can you honestly say CMR led the industry in pay and work rules prior to your strike? Hardly. You guys got lucky and had good timing. Your contract was hardly earth shattering at the time and I'm sure we would have equalled or topped it had 9/11 not occurred. Unlike your airline much of our flying is for UAL and the bankruptcy court has exercised much control of the pursestrings.
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I.P. Freley said:
Think man, that was just a hypothetical. My management (Comair) has no flying to subcontract and can't make deals with anyone. On the other hand Delta does and if you don't think they will use SA against you, you're dreaming. You should consider the following.
1. Delta will now take proposals from anyone that chooses to "bid" on the flying that it doesn't want to give Comair (because we didn't take concessions to get it). Why do you think Delta "gave" a bunch of flying to TSA in New England a few years back? Answer, to depress the value of CMR stock. Then they "gave" some more flying to ACA to further depress the value of CMR stock. Then the bought Comair, saving over $10 a share.
Delta is changing its business plan to emulate other legacy carriers. They are evolving from an airline, to a ticket distribution company. They will buy the seats wherever they can get them for the lowest price, and resell them for a profit, just as the other big "airline companies" are doing. They don't care if they run an airline of if they own airplanes or how many they own. What they sell is seats. It's quite similar to Carl Ichan's "deal" that eventually buried TWA but made him rich.
2. Chautauqua will undoubtedly be "one of the bidders". There is a good chance that Bedford will ask YOU for concessions so that CHQ can make the lowest bid for more Delta seats. If you say no, the games will begin and they will play you just like they are trying to play Comair, except it will be much easier.
3. I know you all think you "got rid of Republic". That's great and I applaud your effort, but you seem to have overlooked something.
Republic is owned by Republic Holdings. Republic Holdings is in turn owned by Wexford. Wexford also owns Shuttle America, Republic and Chautauqua. If you really think your deal at CHQ got rid of the whipsaw problem at Wexford, think again. CHQ and SA are not on the same list and they have different contracts. Just because you have "jets" and SA does not, you think you're home free. Well, it was only yesterday that CHQ didn't have jets either and nobody knew where that name came from or who it was. The same can happen to SA. If they can "low bid" to get 80 jets, where do you think that will leave YOU?
When Delta puts that flying up for bid, there is nothing to prevent Shuttle America from bidding on it. When they under bid CHQ, you will lose the flying you underbid Comair to get. If they get the bid, then they will play CHQ against SA not only for that flying, but for the rest of your flying as well. If you don't concede, the flying will go to them, as the "lowest bidder". Wexford wants the business and they don't care who flys the airplanes. They own all 3 airlines. It's a mini "portfolio", but it's the same game that Delta is playing with its portfolio of DCI carriers, USAG is play with its large group of subcontractors and 4 subsidiaries, AMR is playing by owning Eagle and playing them against CHQ and TSA and for good measure, American too. Northwest is playing PCL against Mesaba and the pilots at PCL are gloating because "they are getting all the RJs, while they kill Mesaba who has now bought Big Sky to play the other end. CAL has spun off COEX and the new XJT is subcontracting with SKYW and Colgan, while CAL pilots (who couldn't care less what happens at XJT) fill their cockpits with furloughed pilots. I could go on and on, but what's the point. If you don't get it by now, you never will.
It is all part of the game, and management will continue to play it as long as we continue to let them. As soon as one group underbids another group for "growth", there will be somebody else to do the same thing to them. Until we ALL stop this trend, you can count on it continuing.
It won't be long after all the "low bidders" get the new "growth" that they will discover the Big Guy wants to lower their "fee for departure" again, and we'll begin round three. Until you bid so low that you go broke and out of business or you try some desperation move like the ACA LCC or Mesa's attempted hostile takeover of ACA.
You can talk all you want about PFT and it will change nothing related to any of this. The only people really affected by PFT are potential new hires that don't have the money to spend on it, not companies. For the companies it's just another revenue stream. Yes it keeps entry wages lower than they might otherwise be but it is based on activity by individuals. The present situation is the result of entire pilot groups, already employed, "feeling good" about trashing their contract in order to take flying from other pilot groups.
There is some logic when bankrupt major airline pilot groups cut their contracts in an effort to survive. In my opinion, there is no logic at all when groups of pilots working for profitable carriers are willing to gut their contracts, which already offer little, to get more of the same but even lower paying flying from other airlines.
It is indeed a "race to the bottom" and regional pilot groups are doing a great job of helping management to win it. If you think that PFT is worse than that, better think again.
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First of all, I said it before and will say it again. BB can come to this pilot group until he is blue in the face. There will be no concessions from us to get more flying. If you don't believe that, you obviously don't know this pilot group.
Second, let's talk about our deal with AA. We are not being pitted against Eagle here. If we were, we would already be in ORD and DFW. I could spend all night telling you why we are in STL, but I don't have time. Basically they turned the flying down and we now have a 10 year contract with them that they can't break for 2 more years without taking over the airplane leases. Also I have been told not to expect ANY more AC with AA. This leads me to believe that the AA code share is short term, just like STL may be short term for any AA service. Get my drift???? Hint Hint.
Third, nobody here at CHQ trust BB more the we can throw him. Do we think all of our problems were resolved when we go rid of RP. HELL NO. I'm glad you know about the whole Wexford Republic ball of crap but we have known about it for a long time. It is no secret here SURPLUS that the ONE thing BB wants more is to take Republic Holdings public. He tried it last year but was bad timing. BB entire future is tied in this public offering that I think will happen in the near future. Well, we all know that SA is NOT part of Republic Holdings. It would not benefit BB at all to see growth at CHQ go to SA. Will he come and ask us for concessions? Sure he could. Will he get them? Most likely NO.
Don't be at all suprised Surlpus, if when all the bids come in, your own company is one of them, doing it under another op. cert.
Your post make it sound like we are all a bunch of idiots here at CHQ. You're raising points that were brought up long long long ago. We all know that the fight has only just begun. You know Wexford can do anything they want with SA. We could have gotten a contract 10 times a good as yours, and still not have any say on where they want to invest THEIR money. If they choose to give SA jets, more power to them. They are free to do so. You have to choose your fights very carefully in this business. It just so happens that the fight was on RP and having CHQ do all flying done by Rep. Holdings.
THE BIG PROBLEM HERE IS THAT WE ARE ALL TAKING FLYING THAT SHOULD BE DONE BY MAINLINE. We might underbid you is no different than you underbidding flying that belongs to the pilots at Delta. I don't want to see any regional grow because it only prolongs the time I have to fly an RJ. Until a major airline hires you into the right seat of an RJ, the problems will continue to get worse.
As far as PFT, it's all in the past. OR IS IT???????????????
Second, let's talk about our deal with AA. We are not being pitted against Eagle here. If we were, we would already be in ORD and DFW. I could spend all night telling you why we are in STL, but I don't have time. Basically they turned the flying down and we now have a 10 year contract with them that they can't break for 2 more years without taking over the airplane leases. Also I have been told not to expect ANY more AC with AA. This leads me to believe that the AA code share is short term, just like STL may be short term for any AA service. Get my drift???? Hint Hint.
Third, nobody here at CHQ trust BB more the we can throw him. Do we think all of our problems were resolved when we go rid of RP. HELL NO. I'm glad you know about the whole Wexford Republic ball of crap but we have known about it for a long time. It is no secret here SURPLUS that the ONE thing BB wants more is to take Republic Holdings public. He tried it last year but was bad timing. BB entire future is tied in this public offering that I think will happen in the near future. Well, we all know that SA is NOT part of Republic Holdings. It would not benefit BB at all to see growth at CHQ go to SA. Will he come and ask us for concessions? Sure he could. Will he get them? Most likely NO.
Don't be at all suprised Surlpus, if when all the bids come in, your own company is one of them, doing it under another op. cert.
Your post make it sound like we are all a bunch of idiots here at CHQ. You're raising points that were brought up long long long ago. We all know that the fight has only just begun. You know Wexford can do anything they want with SA. We could have gotten a contract 10 times a good as yours, and still not have any say on where they want to invest THEIR money. If they choose to give SA jets, more power to them. They are free to do so. You have to choose your fights very carefully in this business. It just so happens that the fight was on RP and having CHQ do all flying done by Rep. Holdings.
THE BIG PROBLEM HERE IS THAT WE ARE ALL TAKING FLYING THAT SHOULD BE DONE BY MAINLINE. We might underbid you is no different than you underbidding flying that belongs to the pilots at Delta. I don't want to see any regional grow because it only prolongs the time I have to fly an RJ. Until a major airline hires you into the right seat of an RJ, the problems will continue to get worse.
As far as PFT, it's all in the past. OR IS IT???????????????
Consider that airline seats have become a commodity. i know everyone screams supply and demand...I agree, but it seems like the situation mirrors the reverse economics of agriculture. When farmers create more food the price goes down so they grow more food further driving prices down ad infinitum et bankruptum. Pilots are the same. If we lower our prices for growth the growth will require lower prices. No one will ever be able to corner the market. Consider the prisoner's dilemma of ratting out his partner to save himself not knowing if his partner has ratted him out. Three possible out comes....both hang, one hangs, both go free. If each pilot group (including the unhired) chooses to fly for less and less they, in effect, hang the other pilots. If that pilot group also decides to fly for less then they both hang. Is this making sense to anyone?????
I.P. Freley
I like people food
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,038
I'm afraid I have to back up TWAer on this one...
... and offer thanks to Surplus1 for spending so much time at the keyboard telling us what we already know. TWAer is right, you must think they're all dead from the shoulders up to not already have glommed onto every single point you "made". Why you continue to point out the obvious, while conveniently ignoring what they DID accomplish, is a total mystery. I guess in your mind, the fact that they don't make more than you at Comair, or even match it, is proof enough that they couldn't fog a mirror. Shame that you can't see that for what it is.
And I guess it answers the question, NO, Comair wasn't threatened by management that they'd give flying to Shuttle America.
N. O. Two letters, not two thousand.
That would've been much easier, wouldn't it?
... and offer thanks to Surplus1 for spending so much time at the keyboard telling us what we already know. TWAer is right, you must think they're all dead from the shoulders up to not already have glommed onto every single point you "made". Why you continue to point out the obvious, while conveniently ignoring what they DID accomplish, is a total mystery. I guess in your mind, the fact that they don't make more than you at Comair, or even match it, is proof enough that they couldn't fog a mirror. Shame that you can't see that for what it is.
And I guess it answers the question, NO, Comair wasn't threatened by management that they'd give flying to Shuttle America.
N. O. Two letters, not two thousand.
That would've been much easier, wouldn't it?
jetflyer
Concerned Citizen
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2002
- Posts
- 2,040
Wexford isn't stupid.
Wexford is not going to get jets at S.A. until your next contract negotiations.
Then Wexford is going to get CHQ pilots to accept less pay at the next negotiations than they're worth like it did with Republic. The pilots (pawns in its game) will be happy they've stopped the EVIL Shuttle America and be elated that they've got low enough pay for their pilots that they can once again underbid other regionals and get new contracts.
CHQ guys have admitted to being growth junkies.
Wexford will continue to play its game with the CHQ guys and it will continue to win in the future like it did getting the CHQ pilots to accept what they accepted.
WEXFORD WASN'T STUPID, actually it's a genius at this chess game. It created Republic for one reason:
To GET CHQ pilots to accept what they accepted in their contract.
It was in a win-win situation with Republic. Either Republic received a ton of jets or the CHQ pilots don't accept what they're worth. WEXFORD DIDN'T CARE which one happened. WEXFORD WINS!
Wexford will do it again with S.A. in 4-5 years at the next contract negotiations. Wexford will be in a no lose situation again.
Jet
Wexford is not going to get jets at S.A. until your next contract negotiations.
Then Wexford is going to get CHQ pilots to accept less pay at the next negotiations than they're worth like it did with Republic. The pilots (pawns in its game) will be happy they've stopped the EVIL Shuttle America and be elated that they've got low enough pay for their pilots that they can once again underbid other regionals and get new contracts.
CHQ guys have admitted to being growth junkies.
Wexford will continue to play its game with the CHQ guys and it will continue to win in the future like it did getting the CHQ pilots to accept what they accepted.
WEXFORD WASN'T STUPID, actually it's a genius at this chess game. It created Republic for one reason:
To GET CHQ pilots to accept what they accepted in their contract.
It was in a win-win situation with Republic. Either Republic received a ton of jets or the CHQ pilots don't accept what they're worth. WEXFORD DIDN'T CARE which one happened. WEXFORD WINS!
Wexford will do it again with S.A. in 4-5 years at the next contract negotiations. Wexford will be in a no lose situation again.
Jet
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FYI, there is no "Mr Wexford". See www.wexford.com
OldManPilot
Senior Member
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2003
- Posts
- 459
jetflyer said:
You have no idea what your talking about... You just like to talk. Wexford is not an idividual. If you knew anything about Chautauqua, or if you would take a little time to study up before you open your cake hole you would know that!
Educate yourself first, then you won't look like a moron!!!
Well let's see... CHQ pilots just signed a new contract... so that part of your argument is void! 4 years till new contract negotiations!
They will continue to get the Republic Certificate. That is so that they can fly for other carriers without the restrictions of current agreements with DAL, AA, US.
All flying will be done by pilots off the CHQ seniority list....
Jetflyer, where do you get your info? you obviouly don't know anything about CHQ... you should read before you speak.
Confusious say a closed mouth gathers no feet. Perhaps you should listen to that sage advise!
They will continue to get the Republic Certificate. That is so that they can fly for other carriers without the restrictions of current agreements with DAL, AA, US.
All flying will be done by pilots off the CHQ seniority list....
Jetflyer, where do you get your info? you obviouly don't know anything about CHQ... you should read before you speak.
Confusious say a closed mouth gathers no feet. Perhaps you should listen to that sage advise!
jetflyer
Concerned Citizen
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2002
- Posts
- 2,040
BE90CPT said:
I FIND IT IRONIC and HUMOROUS that someone calling me IGNORANT and stupid doesn't even know how to spell the word IGNORANT!! I bet he goes back and edits it now!!
IGNORANT not IGNORATE. Which are you BE90CPT??
You all know I'm correct that's why the lame attempts to personally attack me are going on now. Ok I didn't know Wexford was a corporation. Sorry.
BE90CPT,
Are there provisions in the new contract to stop Shuttle America from getting jets and competing against CHQ in the future?? I was reading the posts previous to mine and they made it sound like this is what could happen. Can it not? If Shuttle America can't get jets than I'm sorry, and I was wrong in the points in my post and good job CHQ pilots. Wexford would then have its arms tied in the future and would not be able to manipulate its pilot groups like it has now.
I personally think what Wexford did with Republic was CR*P and I applaud all CHQ pilots for preventing a bad thing. I just think you could have got the stopping of Republic and better pay than you got. Maybe I'm wrong and what you received was all you could receive. Just my opinion and sorry if I come accross as an as-s. Don't mean to.
Either way congratulations stopping Republic, and I hope the S.A. thing can't happen.
Jet
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jetflyer
Concerned Citizen
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2002
- Posts
- 2,040
BE90CPT,
Read my post again, I was talking about 5 years from now, in the future. I KNOW you have a new contract. I was talking about the future. When I said you stopped Republic, I meant you stopped it from using its own seperate pilot group at its own wages. Congratulations this would have been horrible.
I'm not as stupid as I may have appeared. I knew Wexford was a corporation, but I also though it was the name of the founder. Sorry again.
Jet
Read my post again, I was talking about 5 years from now, in the future. I KNOW you have a new contract. I was talking about the future. When I said you stopped Republic, I meant you stopped it from using its own seperate pilot group at its own wages. Congratulations this would have been horrible.
I'm not as stupid as I may have appeared. I knew Wexford was a corporation, but I also though it was the name of the founder. Sorry again.
Jet
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