CHQ for 5 more years or bail for NetJets?

[FrontierFan]

I would really appreciate anybodies advice on my currant situation. I will be 27 this year and I am into my second year at CHQ. I live in Columbus with my wife and the upgrade to captain should be coming early to late fall. My question is this. I have really been considering jumping over to NetJets. I have talked to a lot of their pilots and received a lot of mixed advice.

I don't mind the idea of giving up a RJ captain position to stay in the right seat of a citation for a couple of years. In the last two years I have learned that it is all about life style. Since I live here I know I would have to commute and the idea of only having to pack, drive to the airport, drive home, and unpack twice a month sounds pretty good. I also think it would be really neat to go to new and smaller airports that require you to be a pilot instead of another day of 2 BOS turns or 1 FLL turn.

It also sounds like people get treated totally different at NetJets than at CHQ. Paid from the day you walk in the door, company buys the uniforms and than give 400 annually, two weeks vaction, and much more per diem than CHQ's 1.50/hr. I also know everything is bound to get even better. Everyone I have talked to is pretty excited about the new contract when it comes out. That is one other thing I need help with.

I know money is a big consideration in every decision. I averaged what my salary will be for the next five years if I stay here at Chautauqua and came up with around 54,000+. Does anyone have any guess what average pay at NetJets is over the next 5 and 10 years with natural conservative progression and current contract?

I understand that there are cons to everything and the grass always looks greener. It all boils down to the idea of trying to raise a family and work for the regionals with the hope of the "some day interview" at the bigs that may never happen. Rather going to a stable outfit that a pilot can be happy at long-term.

I would enjoy receiving any advice especially people who work for NetJets now and people who left the regional world.

Thanks in advance

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Is Netjets still hiring? Last I heard they had stopped hiring for all but the Gulfstream operation?

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't mind the idea of giving up a RJ captain position to stay in the right seat of a citation for a couple of years. In the last two years I have learned that it is all about life style.

Methinks you've answered your own question. Family comes first closesly followed by QOL. If the Fractional lifestyle suits you better than you should persue it. Keep in mind, however, that if a Major airline job is your goal that will involve lifestyle sacrifices at some point. But who knows, maybe you'll be happy where ever you end up. Good luck.

Dude

 

[embdrvr]

The other side of the equation is looking at future QOL when it really matters. In 10 years you might have a wife and 2 kids. If you get some 121 PIC and get hired by a major will your kids grow up in a nicer home and attend better schools than they would if you're flying for a fractional that pays less than a good corporate flight department?

 

[ASH]

Yes GO TO NET JETS.....


That's one more off the top

 

[FurloughedAgain]

EMBDRVR said, "If you get some 121 PIC and get hired by a major will your kids grow up in a nicer home and attend better schools than they would..."

What would his kids lifestyle be like if he gets some 121 PIC, gets hired by a major (or a national, or the LCC flavor of the month), gets furloughed once or twice, and 10 years from now is back in the right seat at Chautauqua again?

I vote for NetJets. The airline industry is no place to try and raise a family.

 

[Redtailer]

I hate to be the odd ball out, but I have worked both at Chautauqua and another fractional. From what I know of NetJets, not that it's a really bad place or anything, I would say take the upgrade at Chautauqua. If you need more time off just go for trip trades.

QOL at Chautauqua isn't bad even with the commute. Did that too. But, it could be better. Not to mention you will make a LOT more money, if you are in to that sort of thing, at Chautauqua. Remember, just because NetJets is a fractional doesn't mean they don't have airline like problems such as layoffs and scheduling issues. They haven't had any layoffs yet, but others have. Also most fractionals are pseudo-airlines. They may fly corporate jets, but they run the place just like an airline except for differences in the scheduling rules. Best advice, keep talking to as many NetJets pilots as you can and get a feel for the place. Especially the less than 5 year guys, since that is what will be in your near term interests.

Having done both, obviously for ME it would be worth staying put. You may have a different story however.. Good Luck!!

 

[DirkkDiggler]

I think NetJets is a good company but I've been commuting for 3 years now and I can't stand it. I would really consider the commuting part of the equation pretty heavily. That's only my personal experience though, and you may not think it's as much of a hassle as I do. Especially considering my commute is three hours each direction.

 

[Nightmare67]

I don't know where you live Dirk, but you could end up commuting at NJA too. The gateways can be closed as the company see's fit. Also, the new contract rumors we are hearing are addressing that very issue. Gateways may not be a good reason to choose NJA. I would apply to NJA now and hope the contract is completed before you are hired. Then you can make a more informed decision.

BTW, I left a regional for NJA 19 months ago and I still don't know if I made the right choice. Think long and hard, flying ant NJA is NOTHING like what your used to. As an FO, you will fly very little. Thats the culture here and it sucks. You can also count on minimum rest every day. Thats 10 hrs.

Up side, the hotels are incredible! crew food kicks ass and you'll see the country...every bit.

As for 7 on 7 off...it depends on when you ask me. Leaving for a 7 day trip is AGONY! but coming home for 7 days is SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET

Good luck.

 

[AppBrookie]

I spent 10 years at the airlines(7 regional, 3 major) then after a couple months of unemployment, I got on with NetJets in '02. Fractional flying is nothing at all like the airlines....seniority means nothing on the road, the days they have you, you are basically on reserve, this never changes even with seniority.. ..no block or line to look forward too. You fly allnighters for part of your tour then go back to day flying and could flip-flop again before your tour ends.
The 7/7 is great for some people but if you have or are considering kids, 7 days is a long time away from the ranch. As someone mentioned, they are weird about fo's flying, you can fly pax legs after 250 hrs in type, but few captains allow it. I have gone out for a 7 day tour and only flown 1 leg out a dozen. I hope and pray that the pay drastically goes up, it's pitiful at the current rate for the amount of work(clean/vacuum,stock supplies,load bags, kiss butt, etc,etc). I was lucky to make captains pay as a fo, my w2 for last year was $39,400, I would have probably made about $41,000 this year. Had I made f/o pay( about the bottom 60-70?? folks on the list) My pay would have been in the high 20's last year and slightly higher this year.
The positives: Great hotels, excellent crew food, neat destinations. However, these things do not pay the bills or increase your quality time with your family.
I am very thankfull for my employment at NetJets, however I jumped at the chance to go to work for a LCC and could not be happier, even with the commute!!
Think very hard before you make the jump.
Just my humble opinion.....
Good Luck

 

[climbhappy]

netjets vs CHQ

there aren't any gaurantees at netjets either.... little hiring due to recession. read a wall st journal and notice the ads. every is going to selling block time. many were burned on the share sales. bad return. little equity at end of deal. red tape trying to get out of it. Netjets had a netloss last year. (correct me if i'm wrong)
the buying habits of rich guys can change ina new york minutee. not to say they won't be around, but sounded like CHQ is running on borrowred time. friends tell me junior guys can't the seven on seven off for a while....

 

[jumppilot]

the buying habits of rich guys can change ina new york minutee. not to say they won't be around, but sounded like CHQ is running on borrowred time. friends tell me junior guys can't the seven on seven off for a while....

How's the beer taste this Friday evening?

 

[Yeah]

I spent 10 years at the airlines(7 regional, 3 major) then after a couple months of unemployment, I got on with NetJets in '02. Fractional flying is nothing at all like the airlines....seniority means nothing on the road, the days they have you, you are basically on reserve, this never changes even with seniority.. ..no block or line to look forward too. You fly allnighters for part of your tour then go back to day flying and could flip-flop again before your tour ends.
The 7/7 is great for some people but if you have or are considering kids, 7 days is a long time away from the ranch. As someone mentioned, they are weird about fo's flying, you can fly pax legs after 250 hrs in type, but few captains allow it. I have gone out for a 7 day tour and only flown 1 leg out a dozen. I hope and pray that the pay drastically goes up, it's pitiful at the current rate for the amount of work(clean/vacuum,stock supplies,load bags, kiss butt, etc,etc). I was lucky to make captains pay as a fo, my w2 for last year was $39,400, I would have probably made about $41,000 this year. Had I made f/o pay( about the bottom 60-70?? folks on the list) My pay would have been in the high 20's last year and slightly higher this year.
The positives: Great hotels, excellent crew food, neat destinations. However, these things do not pay the bills or increase your quality time with your family.
I am very thankfull for my employment at NetJets, however I jumped at the chance to go to work for a LCC and could not be happier, even with the commute!!

Think very hard before you make the jump.
Just my humble opinion.....
Good Luck

Are you serious that FO's don't do hardly any of the flying? Is this for insurance reasons or what?

 

[F9 Driver]

Fwiw

I was at EJA for three and a half years, have been flying scheduled 121 for as long, and this is only my opinion, but the life style at EJA/NJA doesn't hold a candle to 121 flying for me. I'm home probably twice as much now as compared with EJA.

I moved rather than commute, and don't plan to ever commute.

Seniority doesn't mean anything at EJA except your vacation dates/amount and some $$. I've got friends with 8+ years getting worked like rented mules on the road - and thats what the job entails. I don't think I'd have delt with going 121 to frax nearly as well as going frax to 121. LOTS more work at frax.

If you are looking at 54K at CHQ now it would take you several years WITH growth with the current payscales at EJA to make the same (I'm not counting LCS reports or per diem here.) And the new contract that will "be done any day" could make a big diference, but till you see it on the ramp or in your account - it doesn't exist.

My .02 is stay where you are, and keep pushing HR at F9 for a better 121 job

Good Luck!

 

[Nightmare67]

"Are you serious that FO's don't do hardly any of the flying? Is this for insurance reasons or what?"

Yes, we're serious. There is no reason other than ego in my opinion.

The policy at NJA is after IOE, an FO may only fly empty legs from the right seat for the first 50 hrs, after the FO has 50 hrs in type, He/She my fly empty legs from either left or right seat. After FO has 250hrs in type, He/she my fly Pax legs from right seat and empty legs from left. An FO will not fly Pax from the left seat.

For the most part, the only captains that swap legs are the ex airline guys. Most others take all the pax legs. I have had 7 day tours like Appbrookie when I flew 1 or 2 leggs. And most empty leg are just repo flight, very short, like .5 to 1.0 block.

I have become quite good at vacuuming though! I'll be back to 121 as soon as I get a chance.

 

[sf3boy]

Hopefully, if those captains that don't alternate PF and PNF every other leg, get hired at an airline someday, their captains will only let them fly the gear and flaps for the first year or so. Who cares if they are typed and have 4000 hours in a Citation. Citation time ain't 737 time. You can never let an inexperienced pilot touch the controls. Ever.

 

[Heavy Set]

Nightmare,

With that attitude I hope you get there sooner than later... Flying a Citation X isn't that bad - there are a lot of guys who would like to be in your shoes.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Nightmare,

With that attitude I hope you get there sooner than later... Flying a Citation X isn't that bad - there are a lot of guys who would like to be in your shoes.

Sorry Heavy Set, I disagree. It isn't like EJA is putting 500 hour pilots in the right seats. If a company (read: Captain) can't trust his FO to fly an airplane with people on board, then why even bother to have them there in the first place? That "FO's can only fly empty legs" attitude is pervasive of the "old school" mentality of aviation and is quite dangerous and problematic in my view - especially to CRM. Don't get me wrong - I think EJA is a quality operation from everything I have read and seen, but this is just a weird flight ops culture that I think is a tad bizarre.

I've never flown Part 91 corporate but for you guys who fly 91 for large corporations, do your G-IV/Falcon 900 Captains let you touch the controls with the boss on board?

Sam

 

[jumppilot]

Nightmare,

With that attitude I hope you get there sooner than later... Flying a Citation X isn't that bad - there are a lot of guys who would like to be in your shoes.

I also disagree, as would most of the 'new school' pilots out there. CRM is important, and letting both pilots do both roles (PF/PNF) is important for each crewmember to gain experience.

I guess we could just let the FO fly when he upgrades...That is probably the safest way.

 

[Nightmare67]

Heavy Set,


I see your laid off. Sorry, that must suck bad. Your right, flying a X is pretty cool.
As far as my "attitude," let me say that with the experience you advertise, Im POSITIVE you would not like it if your flying partner didn't let you fly. I'm happy to be employeed. But that doesn't mean I have to sit back and accept a culture that does not embrace CRM...or at least fairness.

You also said you hope I get back to 121 flying sooner than later....Thanks....Me too!