Airspace Violation in Class Bravo

[brucek]

While flying to COS from BJC yesterday (C172, VFR, flight following from DEN APP), a pilot ahead of me (also flight following) had the controller say something like:

"Cessna 1234, you're just inside the Class Bravo illegally. Cleared into the Class Bravo, call COS APP on......).

(I did not receive clearance to, nor enter, the Class Bravo- although on this track you need to be aware of the Bravo boundaries, which involve a dog leg off V-81 to the right for about 10 nm, if at 9,500').

Given the ATC message above, what's the likely outcome? If bound for COS, as I was, you're in ATC control all the way from that point until landing (COS is a Class Charlie airport). The controller sounded like he was uttering a stern but gentle reminder, but the subsequent clearance made me think the pilot was excused. Then again, while a student, we are taught that a Class Bravo violation is next to a runway incursion (that requires reporting by ATC).

Bruce.
BJC, Jeffco, CO

 

[Corbon]

Unless he gave him a number to call, I doubt anything will come of it. I've flown with an ex-center controller and asked him about violations and what ATC will bust you for. According to him, voilating someone creates a lot of paperwork and also opens the controller to be investigated as well. From what I understand, the radar is set to certain parameters and if these parameters are violated, the radar system will record it and the controller on duty must report it to his supervisor. That's when you get violated. It's not that he wants to bust ya it's because he has to or he'll get in trouble. The controller involved probably just reminded the guy it was illegal so he'd be a little more careful the next time hes buzzing around class B.

 

[Wiggums]

Depends on the situation. If you just motor through an unused corner of the Bravo and annoy ATC then nothing usually happens. If you cause an operation error, such as loss of separation with IFR traffic, you'll be in more trouble. Both the pilot and controller will be investigated.

Many pilots are not aware that even if you are on flight following, the controller doesn't keep you clear of class B airspace, and having a code doesn't grant you permission to enter. Anytime a pilot is VFR they will need to hear, "Cleared to enter the class B."

 

[JBHewlett]

I Agree

I agree,

Unless he said to call a certain tele number I would say that he is going to be fine and dandy. Normally, they will give you a number if the violation is bad enough. But bust class bravo is probably not the rarest of events.

From what I understand if you bust altitude, while IFR. You may recieve a letter in the mail, stating that you must under go more training. However, the controller, may even give you a friendly reminder about this, and nothing may come of it. I am sure busting altitude happens multiple times, every single day.

J.

 

[brucek]

Thanks all.

This board is a great resource; I thought of this question yesterday when I heard the radio communication. The pilot didn't seem to be too concerned either...

Wiggums:

"Many pilots are not aware that even if you are on flight following, the controller doesn't keep you clear of class B airspace, and having a code doesn't grant you permission to enter. Anytime a pilot is VFR they will need to hear, "Cleared to enter the class B.""

I agree- the same for VFR cloud clearance. I usually hear "maintain VFR" when being cleared into Class Bravo.

Thanks,

Bruce.
BJC, Jeffco, CO

 

[350DRIVER]

I agree with the other posts. If safety was not compromised, IFR separation not disrupted, then I wouldn't think ATC would go after one although it is the controllers responsibilty to make a report IF he/she determines that something was compromised and it would be in the best interest of the situation to violate the pilot or just to let it slide- I would assume that some controllers are nicer than others regarding this issue however if you are prepared with all appropriate charts and sectionals then one shouldn't worry about this.

I have found all too often while giving BFR's that some of the pilots rely soley on ATC to make sure that by the time they are nearing class bravo they will hear the magic "cleared into class bravo airspace" phrase since they requested and were given flight following.... It is a pilot responsibility to ensure they are "cleared" into the airspace prior to entering it. I always get quite a few very "unique" answers to class B airspace during the oral portion of the bfr.

C H E E R S

3 5 0

 

[Beechball]

This is straight from a friend of mine who is currently a controller:

If you hear the words, "N12345, possible pilot deviation, I need you to give us a call upon landing....ready to copy the number?"
.... then you're up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

If the controller just keeps handing you off from controller to controller and if by the time you shut your engines down you still haven't heard anything.....nothing should come out of it. The pilot has to be notified while they are in control of the aircraft...otherwise, once the plane's on the ground..who's to know who was flying it?

 

[brucek]

Thanks, some good info.

Bruce.
BJC, Jeffco, CO

 

[501261]

Have your friend fill out the NASA form pronto!

Granted, I don't think anything will happen in the described incident, but get used to filling those things out all the time! It's a big thing in aviation called CYA! Ever need a NASA form and can't find 1, just find a 121 captain; he's guaranteed to have a couple in his flight bag!

Anytime you are VFR into Class Bravo you need to hear the words "CLEARED INTO CLASS BRAVO!" If you go into the NTSB Legal database you will find that pilots have had there licenses suspended for accepting a radar vector that took them INTO Class B, and not having a Class B clearance!

Imagine, "Cessna, 234 fly a 090 heading for traffic." a few minutes pass, "Cessna 234, you're illegally inside Class B, call 800-FAA-HELP on landing!", "But I'm on a 090 assigned heading.", "Doesn't matter, did you hear "Cleared into Class Bravo?"

Granted in most of these cases the controller would be the one who initiates the legal action, by notifying the FSDO of a possible infraction, and since most controllers don't want to do any extra paperwork, probably not going to happen . However, if the controller had a "loss of separation" because of your infraction, you better believe that you will be getting a friendly Certified Letter in the Mail!

 

[brucek]

Thanks-

I have no idea who the other pilot was. Good info and advice on the use of NASA forms.

Bruce.