A&P classes

[Dominicinco]

How is everyone? happy new year.
I have a couple questions about A&P licenses and engineering.
Does anyone know a place to get your A&P license in NYC or LI.
I go to Farmingdale SUNY out in New York and am taking some aviation courses, but they dont offer any airplane mechanic courses.
Second, how is the job market for airplane mechanics right now at JFK or LGA. Are there any other requirements you need if you want to get close to planes and learn how they operate at the big airports besides just getting your license.
Lastly, is it a good, steady job?
Would/have any of you had a Airplane Mechanic job and how was it?
all commments appreciated
-Dominic

 

[avbug]

I've worked as a mechanic for a number of different places, on all kinds of aircraft. I'm doing a boatload of wrenching right now purely by default (wasn't supposed to be doing this, but the need arose, and it beats picking lint from my belly button).

Is it a good trade? Depends if you like doing it.

A lot of aircraft mechanics go for jobs in the auto industry because it pays much better. Aircraft maintenance has a great deal of liability, and it's a whole lot more complex than flying the airplane, working on cars, etc. A lot more to learn, a lot more to remember, a lot more I's to dot and T's to cross.

If you're intent on getting into aviation, you're going to be traveling. Don't tie yourself down to one area. You may well plan on attending a school across the country...there are a lot of good schools out there. You can do just as well at a community college, however.

What are your goals?

 

[Dominicinco]

My main goal as of right now is to become a professional pilot.
I dont want to sell myself short, but times are tough and if i dont quite make it i still want to be in the aviation sector whether that be in management or as a airplane mechanic.
thats why i want to learn this and get a broader sense of the industry.
Getting an A&P license would no doubt benefit my basic understanding of how airplanes work.
BTW, how much do courses run to get a license and how long.

 

[Timebuilder]

I hadn't heard of A&P courses being offered by community colleges.

Does anyone have more info on this?

 

[Vavso]

Hi

have you looked into academy of aeronautics across from LGA?? Vavso

 

[avbug]

Many community colleges offer an associate degree in aircraft maintenance technology. It's very common. They're found all over the country. Typically it's an eighteen month to two year program, full time.

If you are going to school and want to obtain training as a backup to flying, that's great. You may find that entering a flying position with a mechanic certificate will see you turning wrenches more than flying. I've been bounced to the shop before, many times, when things got busy...I made less money (sometimes more), and worked longer, and got dirtier, cut and burned more, what could almost be deemed a punishment at the time, because I was more qualified. Go figure. It happens.

On the other hand, I've been hired many times because I could handle the maintenance, and I could deal with a breakdown in the field, where others couldn't. I've been hired into positions where crewmembers were required to hold a mechanic certificate. My background includes fire work, and it's almost a given that any pilot is maintenance qualified. Pilots who show up without it are considered unqualified pilots, sort of like seeing a student pilot apply for an airline position. Such pilots are all but useless on the job.

My first jet job was a corporate position; I was hired into it to fly, and as director of maintenance. Without the experience and the certificate, I wouldn't have been able to get that job

That's not true for all jobs. Flying corporate or for an airline, there's no such requirement, and many departments, firms, companies, agencies, etc, specifically forbid pilots from working on airplanes.

The training for aircraft maintenance is more comprehensive and extensive than pilot training. You can get through your basic pilot certification in six months with a little effort; a year with no difficulty. Not so with aircraft maintenance training. The same goes with flying a specific aircraft. A pilot with no experience can get type rated in a week to three weeks and be ready to go. A mechanic, while not presently requiring a specific type rating (it's coming, and in the works), may require years to learn an airplane, and even then only a part of it. There's more to learn, and it's a whole lot more complex once the inspection panels are pulled.

How much do courses cost? Figrue it about the same as doing a two year degree, plus tools. You'll need to own your own tools, and for the most part, tools aren't cheap. Most guys starting out of a maintenance school will buy the bare minimum tools, but if you're going to get into maintenance, it's not long before you're into tools in a big way. You'll have a lot invested.

Personally, my soul is owned by both the Snap-on and Mac guys...one piece at a time. I own a lot of craftsman tools, too...but there's a lot that's not available there. And that's to say nothing of rollaways or tool chests....that can run up to twenty five thousand dollars in some cases. Start with a three hundred dollar one from Craftsman and then move up later when conditions permit.

If your goals are to fly, then I'd concentrate on getting flying. Aircraft maintenance is a valueable attribute to have on your resume and in your pocket, and most of all in your head. It's kept me alive time and time again. But it may also delay you in achieving some of your goals. If your goals don't include these additional qualifications, then they will only hinder you.

You will still likely need to consider moving to accomplish any of these goals...it's the name of the game. Pilots are nomads. Change is the norm.

 

[Timebuilder]

Thanks for the info. I have the tools ($40,000 in snap on, Mac, Craftsman, OTC, etc), but not the money for the course.

Is it still possible to work under a certified mechanic to become qualified to take the tests instead of going to school?

 

[avbug]

Yes sir, it surely is. 18 months of practical experience for either the airframe, or powerplant ratings, or a combined 30 months of practical experience to be able to test for both.

The FAA has determined that it should be full time experience, defined as eight hours a day, 40 hours a week. However, typically if you have a letter from a mechanic attesting to your experience, it's adequate.

I achieved my certificate based on experience. When I applied, I had 54 months documented. I had the registration and serial numbers of every aircraft I'd worked on, the work I'd done, and statements attesting to all of it from various mechanics, employers, etc, from eight or so different companies. I had copious amounts of documentation ready, and prepared in a full brief that was bound, with cover sheet and letter, preface, and a table of contents.

When I presented it to an inspector with the FAA, the inspector looked through it and asked where I got it. I told him I spent a year putting it together, and had all the origional letters sent to former employers, all original documents, etc, in a brief case right there if he wanted to see them.

He called several other inspectors into the room. They took turns going through my paperwork. Each asked the same questions. Where did I get that documentation? Who had shown me how to produce it that way? Etc.

Then they asked me questions about the various operations in the book. How had I done this? What type engine was that in NXXXX aircraft? And so forth.

They told me they'd never seen that kind of documentation, and that it far suprassed anything they'd ever expected to see. They were amazed. They said that normally, they got a crumpled letter or two from mechanics attesting to the experience. In my case, I had employment records, letters of reference, affadavits, etc. But normally, no.

At that moment, I had a sinking feeling I'd just wasted a year of effort, though I didn't care...I had my endorsement, and I passed each test with 100%, as well as the oral and practical. I tested for the certificate, incidentally, with the examiner who ran the AMT program at a community college, right in their training department one weekend. He used their training props for the exam. I balanced a propeller, shot rivits, timed a mag, researched an AD, inspected an airplane, and other such things...all in their facility, using their equipment, etc.

My suggestion would be to be as thorough in documentation as you can be...I understand that the administration has tightened up a bit on simply allowing a crumpled paper with an A&P signature on it...but don't kill yourself documenting every hose clamp removed and every locknut torqued. I did, and I've since used that documentation on request in interviews, etc...but it's not necessary.

You'll need documentation showing the 30 months practical experience, and then you'll get authorization to take the three knowledge exams ("writtens"); General, Airframe, and Powerplant. You can then schedule a practical test, and take the oral and the hands-on practical. Some folks do the two week course; bakers, or any of the others you see in Trade A Plane as a finishing program. They'll prep you for the exam and often administer it on sight, knowledge (writtens) and all. Some programs are only a few days. A friend of mine is just finishing up his at a two week program in California, after turning wrenches on cars, motorcycles (he's a Harley PHd),and aircraft (20 years cropdusting). He's probably got more to teach the instructor and examiner than the examiner has to teach him.

So yes, it's still available to do. Several years ago the FAA had discussed the idea of removing this route to certification, and I believe a NPRM existed on the subject. However, to the best of my knowledge, 14 CFR 65.77 still provides that it can be done from experience.

§ 65.77 Experience requirements.

Each applicant for a mechanic certificate or rating must present either an appropriate graduation certificate or certificate of completion from a certificated aviation maintenance technician school or documentary evidence, satisfactory to the Administrator, of -

(a) At least 18 months of practical experience with the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment generally used in constructing, maintaining, or altering airframes, or powerplants appropriate to the rating sought; or

(b) At least 30 months of practical experience concurrently performing the duties appropriate to both the airframe and powerplant ratings.

 

[FL030]

My .02

Went to A and P school Sierra Academy, class of Dec 1988. Hired on with united March 1989. Currently still there 15 yrs later. They provided a minimum tool list that wouldn't amount to more than a few hundred dollars. Any specialty, or calibrated tooling was/is available at the tool cribs. Big roll- aways packed with thousands in Snap-On stuff, in my opion, is just an embarassment and does not a mechanic make. Some of this behavior, in my opinion again, is just compensating for lack of talent and skill. Working aircraft does have its moments where only the 'right' tool will do and frequently it only can come from Snap-On.

This job has steadly gone into the crapper in so many ways and the outlook does not bode well to reverse this trend. But hey it worked for me. The learning and training never ends and probing the mysterys of these great machines has been very satisfying to me.

I want to work little airplanes now and do on the side. Night and Day the two worlds. And they do not collide: it is parallel universes.

 

[UpNDownGuy]

I'd recommend it-

I started in aviation by going to a voc-tech for my A&P license, 26 month program. While I did that, I got my Private on evenings/weekends when I wasn't at one of my jobs (3 at one point). I went back to the same school for my Commerical/Multi/Instr CFII. My first real job was as a mechanic, wrenching on DC-3's. I quickly got offered an FO position, then Captain.
While I understand the point about spending a couple of years getting an A&P, while you could be flying, I've never regretted the decision. I have reaped the rewards everytime I go through groundschool with a new airline. Having an A&P made systems a breeze, allowing me to concentrate on flows, checklists, limitations, etc.
I also can't argue with my Dad, who convinced me to get an A&P in the first place. "If you're going to make your living flying airplanes, you'd better understand how they work". Good advice, Dad...